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Gorge Ban the Bags!
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Dern

Since 11 Jul 2010
508 Posts
Vancouver, WA
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PostSun May 26, 19 8:06 am     Reply with quote

I see two different environmental issues being conflated in this discussion, and in the transcribed interview posted by Gman.

The first is energy and materials consumed to make the bags, the energy presumably being sourced from non-renewable sources and emitting CO2, contributing to climate change, etc.

The second is solid waste pollution, directly affecting what we see in our oceans, rivers, in the stomachs of animals big and small, etc.

Discussions regarding plastic bags, straws, bottles, and other single-use-plastics tend to be discussed around a vague "better for the environment" standpoint. Solutions to one of the above environmental issues may solve one but worsen the other (ex: paper bags produce less physical pollution and more CO2 pollution, per article) or vice-versa. And we don't have reliable metrics to compare which version of pollution is "less-bad" than the other.

The only immediate "better" solution would be what Gman mentioned, which is to get rid of as much packaging as possible and address both environmental issues with the same action. Adoption of more biodegradable and less energy-intensive plastics is building momentum but it is slow and generally unnoticed by most people - it is largely growing via free-market forces and not government mandates. This might be a good thing because organic growth tends to have much more staying power than volatile government mandates.

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Kmun

Since 05 Jul 2009
188 Posts

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PostSun May 26, 19 9:45 am     Reply with quote

Dern wrote:
And we don't have reliable metrics to compare which version of pollution is "less-bad" than the other.


There is little debate among Environmental Economist who have modeling that is comprehensive, accurate and predictive. This confirms long accepted science that is over thirty years old.

Dern wrote:
Adoption of more biodegradable and less energy-intensive plastics is building momentum but it is slow and generally unnoticed by most people - it is largely growing via free-market forces and not government mandates. This might be a good thing because organic growth tends to have much more staying power than volatile government mandates.


"most people" is a lagging indicator.
Follow that "most people" crowd & you are already in the bottom half of your class.

The reactionary "free market"is driven by greed.
The "free market" tracks lagging indicators (A.K.A. average stupid humans).
The free market is the hyena tracking weak, slow prey and is retarded by following the bottom half of the class. "Ain't nobody got time for that".

Time is up:
Innovation does not follow the slow, retarded "free market".

Revolutionary changes in technology or social norms can not & do not wait for "average people". Urgent change requires a political backbone, funding and mandates that lead or drags "average people" and the "free market" kicking and screaming into future.

Governments must lead in crisis and employ the best science minds, fund the R&D and drive mass awareness forcing the heard of "most people" to change direction while setting up the free market to hitch up to the wagon and pull to their greedy hearts content.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=waEC-8GFTP4

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Matt V

Since 26 Oct 2014
379 Posts
Summer- OR Coast, Winter - My van near good snow
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PostSun May 26, 19 10:46 am     Reply with quote

Kmun wrote:


"most people" is a lagging indicator.
Follow that "most people" crowd & you are already in the bottom half of your class.

The reactionary "free market"is driven by greed.
The "free market" tracks lagging indicators (A.K.A. average stupid humans).
The free market is the hyena tracking weak, slow prey and is retarded by following the bottom half of the class. "Ain't nobody got time for that".

Time is up:
Innovation does not follow the slow, retarded "free market".

Revolutionary changes in technology or social norms can not & do not wait for "average people". Urgent change requires a political backbone, funding and mandates that lead or drags "average people" and the "free market" kicking and screaming into future.

Governments must lead in crisis and employ the best science minds, fund the R&D and drive mass awareness forcing the heard of "most people" to change direction while setting up the free market to hitch up to the wagon and pull to their greedy hearts content.


I'll do my best to leave the politics out of it. Instead I will focus more on the mistakes of the past, which humanity seems dead set on repeating.

So Kmun, do you have a good understanding of the track record of governments who are given (seize) absolute power to direct society?

If you do know that track record (history), I completely understand your desire for government control so long as you are one of those that religiously accept the "This time, we will do it right!" idea. Otherwise, you may want to look at human history a little closer for the inevitability of the horrors of the past repeating themselves. And at the bare minimum, please put out there how you think things will go differently this time - that is a pretty big task - but I think you may be up for it.

Those that are opposed to your "all power to the government" ideas, mostly a minority of free thinking students of history out there, are going to make the following argument:

"Since humanity has not got the "utopia" concept clear of all that pesky corruption, pollution, anthropogenic species extinction, torture, murder, starvation, and genocide......well, we may want to hold off on pushing for that 'utopia' until we have a much better indication that 'This time, we will actually get it right.'"

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bigjohn

Since 13 Mar 2012
433 Posts

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PostSun May 26, 19 10:59 am     Reply with quote

Matt V wrote:


"Since humanity has not got the "utopia" concept clear of all that pesky corruption, pollution, anthropogenic species extinction, torture, murder, starvation, and genocide......well, we may want to hold off on pushing for that 'utopia' until we have a much better indication that 'This time, we will actually get it right.'"


Hey Matt, in all fairness to government, I think they have cracked down on torture... Well at least on U.S. Soil anyways... Twisted Evil

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Kitegorge

Since 05 Jun 2019
2 Posts

New Member



PostWed Jun 05, 19 10:37 pm     Reply with quote

Hate to break it to you all: paper bags are much worse . I like the kite bag idea. - Stop eating meat.[img]

   presentation-on-bag-project-web-post-6614-15-638.jpg 

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Matt V

Since 26 Oct 2014
379 Posts
Summer- OR Coast, Winter - My van near good snow
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PostThu Jun 06, 19 4:54 am     Reply with quote

Ya, math is hard.

But it is dam near impossible when you sprinkle a bit of emotion into it.


So much of the environmental movement has been focused on what makes people feel good, instead of actually doing good.


Another bit of food for thought - Q. Why shouldn't just send a rocket ship with all of our garbage into the sun????? A. Because the sun will be coming for earth as it reaches the end of it's lifespan in just a few billion years anyway.

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bigjohn

Since 13 Mar 2012
433 Posts

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PostThu Jun 06, 19 5:21 am     Reply with quote

Kitegorge wrote:
Hate to break it to you all: paper bags are much worse . I like the kite bag idea. - Stop eating meat.[img]


Kitegorge,

To be honest I thought your graph was total BS. I didn't even know what compostable plastic was.

I found this weblink very informational:
http://www.worldcentric.org/biocompostables/bioplastics

Quote:
Compostable Plastic is plastic which is "capable of undergoing biological decomposition in a compost site as part of an available program, such that the plastic is not visually distinguishable and breaks down to carbon dioxide, water, inorganic compounds, and biomass, at a rate consistent with known compostable materials (e.g. cellulose). and leaves no toxic residue." American Society for Testing & Materials (ASTM). In order for a plastic to be called compostable, three criteria need to be met:

Biodegrade - break down into carbon dioxide, water, biomass at the same rate as cellulose (paper).
Disintegrate - the material is indistinguishable in the compost, that it is not visible and needs to be screened out
Eco-toxicity - the biodegradation does not produce any toxic material and the compost can support plant growth.


However, I am calling BS on the stop eating meat! BBQs forever!!!

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chrissmack

Since 08 Jun 2005
465 Posts
portland
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PostThu Jun 06, 19 6:50 am     Reply with quote

Matt V wrote:
Ya, math is hard.

So much of the environmental movement has been focused on what makes people feel good, instead of actually doing good.




well, that aligns with the reality that close to no one truly cares about the planet.

people say they do, and have great intentions, but air travel increases, miles driven increases, average house size increases, red meat consumption increases, throwaway plastic junk consumption increases, etc.

people with their recycled patagonia shell that is saving the planet in this year's trendy colors ....

living an ascetic life to save the planet doesn't seem to be in our DNA

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SalmonSlayer

Since 27 Nov 2005
632 Posts

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CGKA Member


PostThu Jun 06, 19 12:02 pm     Reply with quote

pdxmonkeyboy wrote:
SalmonSlayer wrote:
Not so fast on patting your privileged selves on the back.

Knee jerk reactions and a lack of self awareness (oh the hypocrisy!!) will lead to all kinds of baseless irrelevant policies you can grand stand on while you pat yourselves on the the back rather vigorously.

What is next? Swinging your sword at plastic straw windmills?

Where are the people that walk the talk?

Anyone, anyone?


This is soo funny.. so let me get this straight... you are or not part of the "privileged" kiteboarding class? You don't ever drive a car? Your diesel commercial fishing boat....what kinds of pollution control devices does it have on it? Are you currently running on a treadmil in order to power your laptop and internet router?

Get off your high horse Sidhartha (you can google that.. its a book).

You should google the word hypocrisy, putting forth effort to minimize environmental impacts while still having some environmental impacts is not an example of hypocrisy.


I am part of the privileged class. What I am not is a person that pretends to be environmentally conscious while I dont really do anything that takes any personal sacrifice. I am wary of your knee jerk solutions that will mostly put those on the margins in greater energy poverty.

Why dont you try to live within the carbon footprint of the average human? I am not asking you to do anything but be average. You wont.

Walk the talk or STFU
Get off your high horse
Gain some self awareness
Virtue signalling is not a virtue
You are going to bleed patting yourself on the back that much



I will start paying attention when people that tell me there is a crisis act like there is a crisis.

Just keep avoiding the truth about your own energy consumption. So much education wasted

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fisherman

Since 06 Aug 2007
113 Posts

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PostThu Jun 06, 19 7:56 pm     Reply with quote

Amen Slayer, people like Monkey would like to dictate us through the government agency how we should live while they are as guilty as anyone else of not caring. Do as I say, not as I do. That is their motto. They are too lazy or comfy to go and become an example for the rest of us who won't care about them anyway. Whole bunch of talking and no acting. This Monkeyboy is a special case. Unlike people who kite he pollutes the forest riding his dirt bike. And for a profit he participates in destroying lives of people by selling entry level drugs to them. Oh, I forgot, it's legal now. So no harm to anyone.

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Singlemalt

Since 21 Jun 2015
195 Posts
White Salmon
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PostFri Jun 07, 19 8:24 am     Reply with quote

He sells cigarettes and booze?
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pdxmonkeyboy

Since 16 May 2006
6071 Posts
forever labled as the
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PostFri Jun 07, 19 8:33 am     Reply with quote

I have to agree that the mindset of simply accusing others that "they don't really care" or that they are "not doing their part, so why should I?" must be a super convenient way to go through life and not examine anything that you are actually doing.

People like fisherman are symptomatic of the problem actually. When given the opportunity to lessen their footprint, they simply point to others and say "he or she isn't doing it!" " I will act when everyone else acts".

What is depressing is that they sincerely believe that. I'm not going to help because others are not helping. This kind of attitude is a serious detriment to society. If challenged, they can cherry pick data to support their decision. Paper bags are worse for the environment!!! Look at the carbon footprint!! Really? Is energy consumption the single factor that we are evaluating?

Ask yourself this... how much paper is trickling through the food chain right now? How many toxic chemicals are being released from decaying paper?

Or, if you feel it is convenient. Don't investigate the issue at all. Just start pointing fingers.

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chrissmack

Since 08 Jun 2005
465 Posts
portland
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PostFri Jun 07, 19 12:03 pm    . Reply with quote

Have your co-workers asked you to type quieter?

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pdxmonkeyboy

Since 16 May 2006
6071 Posts
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PostFri Jun 07, 19 5:22 pm    Re: . Reply with quote

chrissmack wrote:
Have your co-workers asked you to type quieter?


Woooo, sick burn bro. Rolling Eyes

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chrissmack

Since 08 Jun 2005
465 Posts
portland
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PostSat Jun 08, 19 8:18 am     Reply with quote

how about this?

anger and passion do not increase the validity of statements

neither does repeating the same thing over and over


i love the part where you have determined that other people's attitudes are a serious detriment to society. good stuff bro

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lewmt

Since 04 Aug 2010
161 Posts
MT
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PostSat Jun 08, 19 12:45 pm     Reply with quote

Quote:
So Kmun, do you have a good understanding of the track record of governments who are given (seize) absolute power to direct society?


True that

I'm currently living/working on a small atoll in the middle of the Pacific. Yesterday we went out along 1 of the barrier islets looking for turtle nests.....probably @3 miles of hiking along the shore. What I did see was literally 1000's of pieces of various forms of plastic - primarily bottles. What I didn't see was 1 single plastic bag......just seems like pretty feckless overlording to me.

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Gman

Since 11 Feb 2006
4793 Posts
Portland
Unstrapped



PostMon Jun 10, 19 11:48 am     Reply with quote

Chop open one of the sea turtles, you will find all the plastic bags

All single use plastic must go - looks like our neighbors to the north will lead this one


https://thehill.com/policy/international/447716-trudeau-announces-canadian-ban-of-single-use-plastics-as-early-as-2021

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