Northwest Kiteboarding
Forum | Classifieds | Lost & Found | CGKA | Industry | Sensors | Forecast | Spots | Seattle | Decals | RSS | Facebook

Events | Photos | Search | Register | Profile | Log in to check your messages | Log in 

Below the bar trim recommendations?

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Northwest Kiteboarding -> Gorge / Portland / Oregon Coast
previous topic :: next topic  
Author Message
Nevo

Since 01 Aug 2014
133 Posts

Stoked



PostThu Apr 11, 19 8:07 am    Below the bar trim recommendations? Reply with quote

Hey all. I'm looking for a new bar and hoping to get some advice on selection.

My current quiver is all North Neos covering the last two years before they became duotone. Riding style is exclusively strapless. Waves at the ocean, freestyle in the river.

Current bar is a North Click bar. I LOVE the clickbar but the cost, build quality, and customer service are god awful so I need to change brands.

The reason I love the click bar is because as a rider with shorter arms I appreciate being able to pick up and dump power in the waves so easily with the clicker. That being said, I'd like to find a new bar that trims below the bar and ideally has a chicken loop that can be changed over to a slider. I'd also love a bar that auto untwists the center lines if possible.

I appreciate any recommendations and pros/cons of control systems you've tried.

Thanks!

View user's profile Send private message
patdaniels

Since 29 Jul 2015
77 Posts
Seattle area
 



PostThu Apr 11, 19 8:53 am     Reply with quote

Slingshot Guardian Bar meets your required features list + improves the issues with your current bar brand - customer service, price (relative), and durability.

Slingshot Compstick bars are 4 lines bars, above the bar or below bar depower and with a "low v or centerline split", that makes it a lot easier to self land kite safely. I wouldn't get a bar without a low v.

Three bar sizes 17", 20", 23" with differing line lengths to accommodate different kite sizes and riding styles, including using 3m extensions. Universal bar is 20", works on all kite sizes. Or, dial in preferences and use small bar for small kites, big bar for big kites. I keep it simple and use 20" bar for all my kite sizes and change line length using 3m line extensions.

Small chicken loop option tightens up throw on slider line, good for those with shorter arms and good in general to be able to tweak bar throw. Numerous parts available to fine tune setup - standard chicken loop, small chicken loop, even smaller metal Talon in place of large or small chicken loop. Easy to take off donkey stick for slider line, put back on for hook, easy to maintain bar and replace parts.

Slingshot Compstick bars are bomber bars with stronger than normal lines. A tad bit heavier than some other bars as a result of the bomber construction, but a good trade off as I see it - does not degrade performance IMO.

https://www.slingshotsports.com/2019-Compstick-w-Guardian

Last edited by patdaniels on Sun Apr 14, 19 8:07 am; edited 1 time in total

View user's profile Send private message
a.benjamin76

Since 27 Jul 2017
28 Posts

 



PostThu Apr 11, 19 8:59 am    Slingshot bar Reply with quote

Agree with everything Pat Daniels said. I use the guardian bar exclusively for all my kites. The talon is a nice metal piece that you can use with a slider rope harness. Additionally, when you remove the chicken loop and install the talon, it exposes a metal drive shaft ring. I attached some spectra rope and tied a fisherman knot so i now have a self launching mechanism despite needing to pop the QR when attaching. I'll attach a photo

View user's profile Send private message
a.benjamin76

Since 27 Jul 2017
28 Posts

 



PostThu Apr 11, 19 9:10 am    Talon Photo Reply with quote

Here's the link for the photo. Hopefully this helps out in your decision.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/qB3BNP4JUNF3DYMn6

View user's profile Send private message
ldhr

Since 21 Jul 2009
1138 Posts
Hood River
XTreme Poster



PostThu Apr 11, 19 9:18 am     Reply with quote

Editing my original post about Slingshot bar and North kites.

1. The pigtails are reversed with North vs. Slingshot. No big deal - you just need to swap the pigtails from front to back lines if possible.... or add pigtails to existing lines.

My original post was backwards..... my memory is failing as I get older!

I tried the Clickbar with the Slingshot kites (because I loved the clickbar) and they flew weird with the higher V of the Clickbar.

I have not tried the Neos with the Slingshot bar (lower V).
My guess is that they would fly ok.

Last edited by ldhr on Fri Apr 12, 19 7:32 am; edited 2 times in total

View user's profile Send private message
Nevo

Since 01 Aug 2014
133 Posts

Stoked



PostThu Apr 11, 19 9:21 am    Re: Talon Photo Reply with quote

a.benjamin76 wrote:
Here's the link for the photo. Hopefully this helps out in your decision.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/qB3BNP4JUNF3DYMn6


That does look really clean. I'd have to see your self launch system in action. I normally just go direct from anchor into the talon, then launch the kite, then pull the release off the anchor and attach to myself. Sounds like you do it slightly different.

Are you also riding slingshot kites? Hoping to confirm that bar works well with north kites...

View user's profile Send private message
Nevo

Since 01 Aug 2014
133 Posts

Stoked



PostThu Apr 11, 19 9:34 am     Reply with quote

ldhr wrote:
Re: the slingshot bar with Neos - I tried it - they don't work well together.

1. The pigtails are reversed with North vs. Slingshot. No big deal - you just need to swap the pigtails from front to back lines if possible.... or add pigtails to existing lines.

2. But the big issue - the 'V' split on the front lines on the Slingshot bar is much lower than the 'V' split on the North. I tried the slingshot bar with my Neos and I thought they flew weird because of this issue. Definitely try it before you buy one.

Did you know the depower line on the regular North (Duotone) bar is adjustable. You can set it lower if you have short arms and higher if you have long arms.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?reload=9&v=6D4N3T5HwQw

Finally - I used a clickbar for 2 seasons without any issues or maintenance. I had well over 150 days on the bar. I used it in fresh and salt water. I sold it with confidence last year when I switched back to Slingshot.
You might try the newer Clickbar...... just saying.


Disappointing to hear about the north/slingshot compatibility.

I do know the depower is adjustable. It seems like adjusting it's position limits the depower pull as a whole, and tbh reaching up to the trim is never going to be as comfortable as trimming from the bar.

I bought the clickbar new last season. After 3 sessions the stopper ball lost it's function, after 20 sessions the steering lines were fraying badly and got replaced, towards the end of the season the glue in the bar floats gave up so they just slide up the lines now. I ride a lot, but I also baby my gear. I thought long and hard about how I could have done any of that damage and can accept that maybe the lines were on me, shit happens, but the stopper ball and floats failing? Can't accept responsibility for that stuff.

A variety of shops have tried to help me out with the repairs but once the request reaches duotone everything ends up dead in the water. Hence, my desire to move to another brand.

Currently I'm still riding the clickbar, with e-tape to hold the floats in place. pretty hokey looking for a $700 bar!

View user's profile Send private message
a.benjamin76

Since 27 Jul 2017
28 Posts

 



PostThu Apr 11, 19 9:34 am    Re: Talon Photo Reply with quote

Nevo wrote:
a.benjamin76 wrote:
Here's the link for the photo. Hopefully this helps out in your decision.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/qB3BNP4JUNF3DYMn6


That does look really clean. I'd have to see your self launch system in action. I normally just go direct from anchor into the talon, then launch the kite, then pull the release off the anchor and attach to myself. Sounds like you do it slightly different.

Are you also riding slingshot kites? Hoping to confirm that bar works well with north kites...


Interesting. I attach the anchor (carabiner) directly to the blue rope or the stainless ring on the blue rope. From there I can open or close the talon chicken loop as much as I want until I'm comfortable attaching to my rope slider. All of the tension is on the blue rope and drive shift. Works out pretty conveniently. I have not tried the bar with a North kite so I'm not sure how the low vs high V would affect flying performance. I use this bar on my slingshot kites.

View user's profile Send private message
patdaniels

Since 29 Jul 2015
77 Posts
Seattle area
 



PostThu Apr 11, 19 9:49 am     Reply with quote

I ride Slingshot kites, have not ridden NEO kites with Compstick bar.

However, I've seen numerous other riders using Compstick bars on 4 line non Slingshot kites including North, and the riders appeared to be happy.

In the case cited here with NEO not working well with Compstick - I wonder if it's a true issue of compatibility due to low v, or an issue of getting used to the different feel of the bar?

4 line bars seem to be fairly compatible these days, or at least in many cases. Maybe this one is an exception, but probably worth exploring further.

Suggest you try to link up with local Slingshot rep to possibly do a demo of a Compstick Guardian bar with your NEO kites. Or give Slingshot Rider Hotline a call to discuss - 1.877.775.4832.

Hope you find a bar that works well for you.

View user's profile Send private message
Da Yoda

Since 12 Mar 2009
71 Posts

 



PostThu Apr 11, 19 11:26 am     Reply with quote

Ocean Rodeo's Shift bar could also work for ya. I thought I heard the front V-point is adjustable (for North/Duotone/Core/etc), but I'm not positive.
https://www.facebook.com/kitesurfing.magazine/videos/243636362959613/?hc_ref=ARRCKas45gHlHzK1OvSIIHq5aukvWFtsG-eoO9d9wE1W6YJ-Nj44zM9dM0A4GP1LtzE

View user's profile Send private message
jasonq

Since 12 Jan 2009
163 Posts
vancouver
Stoked



PostThu Apr 11, 19 2:40 pm     Reply with quote

ok, i am also not the longest of arms, and have tried most avenues to betterness, aside from the click bar or shift bar.

people with long arms don't understand how important adjusting the depower is to people with short arms.

first the obvious, do everything you can to get the top of your chicken loop as close to you as possible. Small loops, seat/boardshorts harness, etc, etc.

I have tried the guardian + talon. i think the release is great, quality is there, talon is great, but it puts the depower cleat so close and below that it is really hard to adjust. the open top clam cleat does not help one bit. I constantly missed reseating it. and doing it without looking was really hard. I sold it.

a good overall solution for me was a modified LF CPR. look for my pic in this thread.
http://www.nwkite.com/forums/t-44668.html&highlight=
this was so compact that and increase by bar throw so much that i did not have to adjust depower much on the water. but when i did, again, too close and low to be easy. easier than the guardian due to the closed top cleat. the problem with this is that it is custom on the spread bar side, so i couldn't use my wife's bar, and she couldn't use this. self launch with a tether was also problematic (i used a prussic loop on the mainline)

so i decided to give above the bar a try, but knew i wouldn't like it without some tinkering on my part. I got a kite attitude CL with a small loop because they were the most compact i could find. I then did some tinkering by making a custom mainline and stopper balls, and moded the loop a little. the result is that i ran a bungie line similar to the safety bungie from the end of the mainline/depower handle, thru the bar to the CL. If i cannot reach the handle, i just pull on that bungie until it depowers. Works fantastic for me. Always in reach, no issues with akward angles. i am not sure why i haven't seen it before. I use it without a hook and on sort of limited motion slider spreader. this works with a standard spreader, and i can use a std CL, solving the handing off kites with the wife problem. tethers are not ideal, but workable with a carabiner around the mainline above the CL. for a normal hook spreader, carabiner could be thru the chicken loop. Sorry no pics available.

View user's profile Send private message
ldhr

Since 21 Jul 2009
1138 Posts
Hood River
XTreme Poster



PostThu Apr 11, 19 2:51 pm     Reply with quote

jasonq wrote:

I have tried the guardian + talon. i think the release is great, quality is there, talon is great, but it puts the depower cleat so close and below that it is really hard to adjust. the open top clam cleat does not help one bit. I constantly missed reseating it. and doing it without looking was really hard. I sold it.


FWIW - the Slingshot Guardian with below the bar depower is very hard to use for the first few hours. I hated it the first 2 sessions I used it. The rope would slip in the cleat - WTF! But, once the rope gets wet and "broken in" it will seat and adjust much easier. I hated it at first but now I love it.

View user's profile Send private message
patdaniels

Since 29 Jul 2015
77 Posts
Seattle area
 



PostThu Apr 11, 19 3:45 pm     Reply with quote

ldhr wrote:
jasonq wrote:

I have tried the guardian + talon. i think the release is great, quality is there, talon is great, but it puts the depower cleat so close and below that it is really hard to adjust. the open top clam cleat does not help one bit. I constantly missed reseating it. and doing it without looking was really hard. I sold it.


FWIW - the Slingshot Guardian with below the bar depower is very hard to use for the first few hours. I hated it the first 2 sessions I used it. The rope would slip in the cleat - WTF! But, once the rope gets wet and "broken in" it will seat and adjust much easier. I hated it at first but now I love it.


Regarding Talon, it is tight to work with in general versus small CL, definitely harder to reset under stress in higher winds after safety release in deep water vs small CL on slider line - due to Talon's very small size. For this reason, I use the small chicken loop on slider line in higher winds. I still use Talon in lighter winds, when concern over Talon reset in deep water under stress is minimized.

Regarding Compstick Guardian below the bar depower usability, it takes a little understanding and practice to dial it in, but it's not hard. The important thing to know is to uncleat and cleat when there is less pressure/power from kite on lines, when your lines are slightly slackened.

An easy way to do this is to pressure toeside on your board while pointing nose of your board downwind towards your kite to slacken lines for a second or two while you uncleat - adjust trim - cleat back in. Then dig back in on heelside on your board pointing nose of board upwind with newly adjusted trim.

Slingshot Compstick Sentinel above the bar depower has magnets built in to secure excess trim line from flopping around. Guardian below the bar depower does not have the built in magnets.

However, you can do an easy mod to Guardian by taping small magnets bought at a hardware store with electrical tape to the Guardian depower line handle and the Guardian butter box. I'm having issues uploading pics to nwkite at the moment, so if anyone is interested, DM me and I'll send pics of that Guardian mod.

View user's profile Send private message
voy-tech

Since 08 Apr 2014
370 Posts
Seattle
Obsessed

CGKA Member


PostThu Apr 11, 19 6:12 pm     Reply with quote

One more suggestion to ease depowering in Compstick bars - sheet all the way in, then start slowly sheeting out as you pull in the depower - works every time (i'm often not able to depower otherwise in really strong conditions).
_________________
My pictures of the beautiful PNW
http://behindtheviewfinder.com

View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Da Yoda

Since 12 Mar 2009
71 Posts

 



PostThu Apr 11, 19 7:22 pm     Reply with quote

Da Yoda wrote:
Ocean Rodeo's Shift bar could also work for ya. I thought I heard the front V-point is adjustable (for North/Duotone/Core/etc), but I'm not positive.

Never mind. I found a response on another forum that indicates that the V-point is much lower on the Shift bar vs North. However you should test it. I know several people who fly North kites with low V bars and don't seem to be complaining. Good luck!

View user's profile Send private message
jasonq

Since 12 Jan 2009
163 Posts
vancouver
Stoked



PostFri Apr 12, 19 9:39 pm     Reply with quote

my issues with the depower on the guardian were 1/2 related to the design of the guardian clam cleat, 1/2 due to the talon, and 1/2 due to the "zero length" hook i was using (the talon was effectively right onto the spreader bar, no rope, not hook, etc) with a board shorts harness.

i used it for 4 sessions. I understand all the sheet in and let it out while adjusting aids. used them for years with below the bar setups.

1/2 due to the clam cleat was because it was located on the side, although with a rope, it could be on top. the problem was that i'd unseat the line, let it out or pull it in, then try to reseat, but constanly miss to the side because it is an open top design where the entire rope could be miss the cleat. and being on the side meant i was having to use either feel or depth perception to guide the rope. if on top it would have been better for vision, but same issues. the fact that the guardian was at the level of my belly button made this worse because it was way out of my normal vision.

1/2 due to talon, and 1/2 due to zero length hook. this is not strictly a guardian issue, and i have had issues with other similar geometriy. This put the guardian extremely close to my waist, pretty much right at my hip. in that position there are two problems. very little leverage to pull the rope, which was a huge problem, and when I did pull it, i'd only get an inch or two of pull before my hand hit my hip. at that point, i'd have to reseat, and do it again (reseating usually lost 1/2 of that gain) but at least i had not moved the rope out of line with the cleat. Or move my hand around my hip and pull to the side. This did move the rope out of line with the cleat, and made reseating it a touchy affair.

a guardian with a normal hook + loop, or a waist harness + talon + rope probably would have solved the bio mechanical problems, and i likely would have gotten used to the reseating the cleat. But I i have a feeling i would have done some surgery and put in a cleat with a closed top, or closed the top of the stock cleat, because i shouldn't have to get used to what i feel is a bad choice of clam cleat.

but again, i did all the above because maximizing the usable bar throw is the only way i can kite and feel safe on gusty days without having to constantly deal with over and under powered multiple times per reach. And since my arms are only so long, that means getting more usable throw towards my body, so board shorts, smallest chicken loop unit i can get, run with the smallest loop/talon-like thing i can get. And that puts below the bar depower into a really bad biomechanical place no matter what.

So i went above the bar, and decided to fix what i didn't like about above the bar, but i really did think about a clicker/stick shift bar. I think i will eventually end up with one at some point in the future.

View user's profile Send private message
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Northwest Kiteboarding -> Gorge / Portland / Oregon Coast All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You can attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum