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Two kites tangle, one man wins.
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MasPedos

Since 05 May 2017
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PostSat Apr 14, 18 3:33 am    Two kites tangle, one man wins. Reply with quote

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhIZkdyROFo

I'm an IKO/Pasa kite instructor and I'm here to tell you that every kite situation is different.

This video shows a kitetastrophy with two kites tangling. The guy who deals with the situation is obviously a local kiter with ton's of knowledge and experience. He passes his kite off to the other dude and then get to the kite for a self rescue. He then negotiates with a fisherman to get a boat ride in to shore.

Luckily, very much so, they don't just eject their kites. There are gonna be people who, less experienced, will eject right away. This is not always the answer and if you do eject while the other guy is trying to figure out his/her situation you may cause them some damage.

A kite tangle is the most Heinass issue that two person can have occur. There is no clear cut answer, but this video shows what is possible.

As long as you don't lose your shit you can sort it out.

Keep your kite in control. Don't do anything drastic by sending it up and over and then causing more twists in the tangle that limit your control.

Talk to the other person. Quickly assess who is going to have to do what. In this situation "The Captain" was obviously able to deal and took control. He communicated clearly and and the "Dude Broski" followed his reccomendations.

Great Video.

What are your thougths NWkite Freaks?

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wylieflyote

Since 30 Jun 2006
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PostSat Apr 14, 18 7:41 am     Reply with quote

There is just too many variables during an event like this to plan and follow through on. With a recent kite tangle of my own, at one point the person I crashed into yelled "Kip, I am getting too exhausted to go on!" Meaning he soon would lose the stamina to swim any more. At this point I felt the only option remaining was us both to cut-away everything, as the twin kites were powering up. The winds were stronger (La Ventana) than in this video.

But then.... I had made nomerous wrong decisions building up to this stage.

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blancoh2o

Since 15 Mar 2005
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PostSat Apr 14, 18 8:54 am     Reply with quote

This guy remained calm and sorted it out. Often times that works but not always. Most people, even very experienced kiters freak out when there is a tangle.
My theory is that if I am not being yanked downwind and both of us are still flying our kites, we can probably figure out how to untangle our lines. It does take communication and a sense of calm though. As soon as one of the kiters looses their mind and starts getting mad about the tangle, they eject and stuff goes sideways.

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toddjb

Since 16 Oct 2007
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PostSat Apr 14, 18 6:05 pm     Reply with quote

Dmitri released a video on this a month ago as well.

Another perspective, helpful, entertaining...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wk5SkOd_AkA

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Matt V

Since 26 Oct 2014
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PostSat Apr 14, 18 7:19 pm     Reply with quote

Both are good vids. This subject is in an area where most kiters will have little experience. Only happened to me once where the kites stayed tangled.

"Don't release your kite" is ok advice, but I would add to that "release your kite if necessary to avoid injury".

In my tangle, my kite started to loop, and there was nothing I could do to stop that. Thus you need to be ready to release, but there is great advice here on avoiding that.

What it really comes down to is WHO you have tangled with. Beginner to pro, if you are not on the same page - it will not likely end well. Still try your best and keep calm.

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knotwindy

Since 25 Sep 2011
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PostSat Apr 14, 18 8:15 pm     Reply with quote

Not sure if this was covered but make sure if you are going to release you at least try and let the other person know so you can release together. Otherwise, the other person will have two kites attached suddenly with at least one looping.

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Seaplus

Since 06 May 2012
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PostSun Apr 15, 18 6:24 am     Reply with quote

Just witnessed one the other day.

Completely agree with knotwindy about letting the other kiter know your intentions of releasing...maybe even agree to release at the same time if all options go to sh_t.

One option I've rarely heard mentioned and all options are exhausted, is if you're next to the other kiter's kite; pull their deflate valve. That'll completely take one powered-up kite out of the equation. Of course that'll put a bunch of loose lines around you to deal with.

Cooler heads will prevail

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bigjohn

Since 13 Mar 2012
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PostSun Apr 15, 18 9:13 pm     Reply with quote

This is a good topic and does not get enough discussion.

I think it is important to recognize that if one kiter is downwind of the other kiter, the downwind kiter is the kiter at risk.

The upwind kiter should never never NEVER under any circumstance pull his/her safety when the other kiter is downwind. Doing so runs the risk of your lines wrapping around the downwind kiter putting them at great risk.

Even if one or both of the kites are looping it should be the downwind kiter's call if/when to release.

I think it's also important to focus on what you can control. Your kite... If it's stable - keep it stable. If it's looping - stabilize it.

Also - food for thought... If you are the down wind kiter and the other kite is out of control or looping, perhaps you are in a better position to stabilize it than the other kiter.

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Kmun

Since 05 Jul 2009
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PostMon Apr 16, 18 6:08 am     Reply with quote

bigjohn wrote:

If it's stable - keep it stable.


I suspect your meaning is; if it is stable and dead on the water, keep it there with techniques such as...

1. Letting go of your bar
2. Grabbing a hank+ of flag line (like a self landing/killing the kite). This should reduce the amount of flag line to keep track of (& not tangle in).
3. Please add more suggestions ***

bigjohn wrote:

If it's looping - stabilize it.

See death loop survival:
1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=naFKEWEHn6k&t=348s

2. Former discussion of death loop:
http://www.nwkite.com/forums/t-38177.html&highlight=death+loop

bigjohn wrote:
Also - food for thought... If you are the down wind kiter and the other kite is out of control or looping, perhaps you are in a better position to stabilize it than the other kiter.

3. Bigjohn: Please flesh this out. How would the down wind kiter have ability to "stabilize it" [/b]

4. Anyone have a advise for a non-line locked death spiral (as in the video) but one induced by two tension sets simply crossed.

A) Is it wise technique to flag or keep a flagged kite stable by pushing and holding the bar at max distance away while the other hand holds a flag/font line from above the bar and is hanking it back and away from the bar (think pulling back a bow).
Would an hand on the bar help prevent entanglement by keep track of all other lines vs. after grabbing a flag line, letting go of the bar allowing remaining three lines to spin & flop with the bar?

Last edited by Kmun on Mon Apr 16, 18 9:50 am; edited 2 times in total

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voy-tech

Since 08 Apr 2014
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PostMon Apr 16, 18 7:22 am     Reply with quote

bigjohn wrote:
This is a good topic and does not get enough discussion.

I think it is important to recognize that if one kiter is downwind of the other kiter, the downwind kiter is the kiter at risk.

The upwind kiter should never never NEVER under any circumstance pull his/her safety when the other kiter is downwind. Doing so runs the risk of your lines wrapping around the downwind kiter putting them at great risk.


Yup - happened to me on Maui, a guy crashed into me on a wave and while i was downwind of him he immediately ejected everything (including the leash) while I was trying to get our kites untangled. That resulted in his lines wrapping around my hands on my bar and about 10s later my kite started looping due to his lines pulling my bar now. Fortunately I managed to get my hands out of the way in time before both sets of lines tensioned (otherwise not sure if i'd still have all fingers). In the end both kites were looping and pulling me by my leash towards the shore where someone grabbed them and there was no damage to either kite. But for couple seconds it was heading into real kitemare situation.

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bigjohn

Since 13 Mar 2012
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PostMon Apr 16, 18 9:59 am     Reply with quote

Kmun wrote:
bigjohn wrote:

If it's stable - keep it stable.


I suspect your meaning is; if it is stable and dead on the water, keep it there with techniques such as...

1. Letting go of your bar
2. Grabbing a hank+ of flag line (like a self landing/killing the kite). This should reduce the amount of flag line to keep track of (& not tangle in).
3. Please add more suggestions ***



To me stable can mean different things in different situations.

If on the river away from any fixed objects (rocks, fishnets etc.) stable probably means both kites are down in the water pointing opposite directions.

However if in the surf or around fixed objects stable probably means both kites are up in the air with one leaning to the left and the other leaning to the right.

One last opinion - I would prefer to not flag my kite if given a choice. Once a kite is flagged you give up control of the kite. That being said, I can think of situations where flagging one or both of the kites might be the best option.

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bigjohn

Since 13 Mar 2012
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PostMon Apr 16, 18 10:25 am     Reply with quote

Kmun wrote:

bigjohn wrote:
Also - food for thought... If you are the down wind kiter and the other kite is out of control or looping, perhaps you are in a better position to stabilize it than the other kiter.

3. Bigjohn: Please flesh this out. How would the down wind kiter have ability to "stabilize it" [/b]


Kmun - I wouldn't read too much into this. I was just suggesting that if you are the downwind kiter and feel like you are getting pinched in by the upwind kiter's lines that perhaps you might want to consider taking control of their kite by grabbing their lines. I definitely would not suggest this as the primary course of action, rather something to be aware of as a potential option in the event you are about to get pinched our sliced.

If you can determine which are the steering lines you may be able to steer the kite. If not, simply flagging their kite with a single line might be an option... Especially if you have reason to believe they are going to release their bar/lines into you.

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MasPedos

Since 05 May 2017
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PostMon Apr 16, 18 11:05 am    So many variables but some best practices are: Reply with quote

There are no single answers to this question as all situations are different.

Best practices in my opinion are:

1. Stop, look at what is happening. Are you going to die? Eject that shit, but tell the other guy, yell like you mean it, "I'm gonna eject this now, I'm gonna eject.!! The price of a kite is not worth your life or mine.
2. Communicate with the other unfortunate kiter. Don't be a dick. Remain calm and talk to them loudly and respectfully. Coach them on what to do. If you are kiting in a crowded area it's only a matter of time before a newb wraps you up in their lines. If you see a kiter being risky go over and say to him, sup bro? Why you tricking close to shore, do you need a hug? Nobody wants to see your stupid as tricks, go farther away unless you are Hadlow, Lenton, or the shit, go away from the newb zone. Ok, thanks bro, hugs.
3. Avoid showing off near shore and being a wave nazi. Don't hog the best part of the wave and expect everyone to avoid you. Your gonna be buzzed by guys wanting desperately to kite that shit and chances are that if you get wrapped up their gonna beat you down.
4. Know and follow ROW. If you are approaching another kite can they see you? Do they have headphones in? Never know and don't assume anything. Headphones are not good in crowded areas because you can't hear shit. Ear plugs are not good in crowded areas. Don't put yourself at risk.
5. Don't assume that everyone is capable of steering their kite. The worst tangles I've seen have been in Maui with a close second being the Event Site(the zoo daze). The worst one I've seen just looked like they were oblivious and just had no regard for who was going to do what. They were right off the beach and not communicating at all. At least, I thought, they should be pointing up to indicate, put your kite up buddy, etc..Just amazingly neglectful conduct. Total disregard for the other guy assuming he was going to move, yikes.

Anyway, just saying,

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Matt V

Since 26 Oct 2014
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PostMon Apr 16, 18 6:34 pm     Reply with quote

knotwindy wrote:
Not sure if this was covered but make sure if you are going to release you at least try and let the other person know so you can release together. Otherwise, the other person will have two kites attached suddenly with at least one looping.


Sounds great??? But.....I have never considered a loop an issue, unless I am getting yanked out of control. And I would give the example of getting yanked off my feet (rolling over, washed in the break) or being submerged by the kite pull, as being out of control.

Thus if the loop is an issue, you may hear "Ffuuu....(then the pop of my chicken loop, and possibly leash if I am still being dragged)". What I am saying is that when I blow my CL, the circumstances are dire enough that there is no time for a polite conversation. I too agree that you should not blow the CL until it is ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY. When it is ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY, there is no time to inform.

In the case when:

MasPedos wrote:

1. Stop, look at what is happening. Are you going to die? Eject that shit, but tell the other guy, yell like you mean it, "I'm gonna eject this now, I'm gonna eject.!!


If you can say out loud the part in the quotes, you are likely not in immediate danger as evidenced by you having enough time to say this. Or rather, if you can say this, you may want to hold on a little longer to the kite to see if you can work it out. But by all means, try to communicate - especially if you are choosing to eject out of fear of how badly it is going as opposed to an immediate need.

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Last edited by Matt V on Mon Apr 16, 18 6:50 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Matt V

Since 26 Oct 2014
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PostMon Apr 16, 18 6:49 pm     Reply with quote

bigjohn wrote:
This is a good topic and does not get enough discussion.

I think it is important to recognize that if one kiter is downwind of the other kiter, the downwind kiter is the kiter at risk.

The upwind kiter should never never NEVER under any circumstance pull his/her safety when the other kiter is downwind. Doing so runs the risk of your lines wrapping around the downwind kiter putting them at great risk.

Even if one or both of the kites are looping it should be the downwind kiter's call if/when to release.


In a situation where I am downwind of the kiter tangled with me, I would invite them to release and possibly hit me with the bar (let it go to safety first to reduce the speed of the bar if enough distance) - I would not complain at all. At least so long as that kiter is doing so in an effort to NOT HIT ME with their body at high speed.

The bar has the potential to knock me out for sure, but their body (elbow, knee, heel) is going to likely do much more damage than that.


This is a good conversation, but it really highlights the fact that there are many different angles to look at this from. And when you tangle, you will likely not be tangling with someone who holds your same view on proper procedure.

Add to that the fact that a few of us are still using older bar systems that flag out to both front lines. At this point, the variables are pilling up to where a procedural recommendation would wind up being a 1000 page book, or a 6 hour video.

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bigjohn

Since 13 Mar 2012
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PostMon Apr 16, 18 8:16 pm     Reply with quote

Matt V wrote:

This is a good conversation, but it really highlights the fact that there are many different angles to look at this from. And when you tangle, you will likely not be tangling with someone who holds your same view on proper procedure.


Matt - I agree with everything you said... Kite tangles have a million scenarios. It's impossible to write an operating manual that covers every possible outcome... However I feel that your points veered from some core basic aspects.

First:
Your best opportunity for resolving a kite tangle safely is at the beginning. If you stabilize your kite before it goes into a loop then you have performed your share of the proper solution.

Second:
If you simply pull your safety(s) because you are scared that you are tangled then you are likely making the situation more dangerous for both yourself as well as the person you are tangled with.

Third:
Communication is key. It takes both kiters to resolve the kite entanglement. Working together on a shared plan will increase the likeliness of success considerably.

Fourth:
There are situations where pulling your safety is the right thing to do. However just because your kite is tangled up is not necessarily reason to pull the trigger.

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Matt V

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PostTue Apr 17, 18 5:50 am     Reply with quote

Yes, I believe we are close to being on the same page, but I would need a better explanation on two of your suggestions. And please note: I only have had to eject because of a tangle once(their kite went inside of 3 lines of my lines) - all other tangles I have had, have come out on their own without release(maybe 3-4 in 10 years)

bigjohn wrote:

First:
Your best opportunity for resolving a kite tangle safely is at the beginning. If you stabilize your kite before it goes into a loop then you have performed your share of


I am not sure how to do this. Just steer it, and don't loop it? - that would be common sense that would be knowledge gained at the trainer kite level. How would I stabilize my kite if the other kite flew inside 1 - 3 kite lines? When would the kite loop when the kites tangle all lines???


bigjohn wrote:

Second:
If you simply pull your safety(s) because you are scared that you are tangled (emphasis added) then you are likely making the situation more dangerous for both yourself as well as the person you are tangled with.


I absolutely agree, but thought I was not in agreement until I re-read the statement and added the emphasis. Being scared is not a real reason to release. Being out of control, possibly getting dragged through lines or impacting the other kiter, IS OUT OF CONTROL. In the latter case, definitely pull your release. This should be the first consideration, not your fourth.


Your third statement is pretty obvious - communication is a high priority, if you can.


bigjohn wrote:

Fourth:
There are situations where pulling your safety is the right thing to do. However just because your kite is tangled up is not necessarily reason to pull the trigger.


Most watching this thread are curious as to when you would be justified in immediate release without communication. When would you define that as being allowed? The answer is key to any rules even being suggested.



Over all, I think this thread is trying to figure out how a watch works, when you really need to just keep an eye on the time.

Just look at wave right of way. Pretty simple with the statement "rider on (engaging the) wave has right of way". Does that mean that you can ride a wave in and force someone up onto shore? Many shorebreaks are close and there is no room on the inside when you ride a wave till it closes out. - NO you cannot force some one up on shore, and you must abandon the wave ride before you cause that to happen or space (time) yourself so it does not happen. And there are many more situations that "wave" right of way are given up even when the wave is engaged by the kiter. So with such a simple rule having so many complications, a tangle is never going to be able to have a set or rules with a defined action.

My suggestion is to not look at this situation as "what the other guy should do, and if he does not do it, the result is his fault". You can never train all the other kiters, beginners to "pro-kooks" to us actually trying to figure out a set of rules. Rules only help if a majority of kiters abide by them. I am not saying you need all kiters to subscribe to a consensus, but you do need most of them to.

"Don't release immediately" is a great suggestion you can not reasonably expect to be adhered to. We should focus on what "I" should do when the guy tangled with me does "X". Get away from blaming someone for doing the wrong thing when they tangle up for their first time. Learn what your safest action should be when the other guy does something that you did not really want them to do.

The variability in this situation is so high, that no rules can be defined. Thus no one can be expected to follow rules that cannot be defined.

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