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New Ethics... KITE? Yes / No / Maybe
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Post new topic   Reply to topic    Northwest Kiteboarding -> Gorge / Portland / Oregon Coast
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caps

Since 23 Dec 2010
343 Posts

Obsessed



PostThu Mar 26, 20 7:15 am     Reply with quote

OK, if it's 3 weeks from now and I'm on a deserted beach near my home and the wind is prime, I'm not sure what I'll do. I might send it, I might not.

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knotwindy

Since 25 Sep 2011
598 Posts

Addicted



PostThu Mar 26, 20 7:32 am    Maybe? Reply with quote

Reluctantly as devils advocate (not that he needs one)

There seems to be a fair amount of fear disguised as ‘doing what you’ve been told is right’ on here. Yes, of course, stay away from others, wash your hands, etc. The same basic stuff your grandma should have taught you to do when you got sick as a child. Stay home, stay warm, drink warm fluids(tea/chicken soup) wash your hands. Hard to believe folks don’t remember this.
But are any of you suggesting that not doing something you love that is good & healthy for you (and boosts your immune response) because ‘others’ might look down on you or follow or misunderstand is a good idea at this time? That showing folks that life can go on safely is being a bad role model? That overreacting is not a good solution to a problem?
Not trying to be ‘that guy’ but I think this all has possibly been taken to a level of crazy. Just sayin’ as I’m stuck at home with lots of time right now! Question

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curiously observing blurry patterns while slightly distracted

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Ho-Toe

Since 30 Apr 2014
231 Posts
pissed-off science guy like Bill Nye
CO2 quantifier & upwelling specialist



PostThu Mar 26, 20 7:50 am    nuh uh Reply with quote

I've done a lot of mental gymnastics about this:

I know places where I can legally access the beach (for now).

I can safely solo launch & land.

I can stay a respectful distance away from other kiters.

I can kite conservatively to minimize my chances of injury.

--BUT--

I cannot keep a crowd of other people from parking at my formerly unobtrusive access point.

I cannot keep other kiters from joining me once they see my kite in the air.

I cannot drive to the beach without eventually stopping at a filling station and interacting with the attendant (an aside: please run your own credit card in the pump to eliminate cross-contamination!).

I cannot guarantee some other driver on an "essential" (ahem) errand will not plow into me as I drive to the beach, necessitating my entry into the currently FUBAR medical system.

Since I cannot guarantee that I will neither contract nor disperse this virus in my comings and goings, I will not kite until society gets the all-clear. It is not ethically justifiable.

Last edited by Ho-Toe on Thu Mar 26, 20 7:59 am; edited 1 time in total

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tree

Since 29 May 2007
147 Posts
Bend, OR
Stoked



PostThu Mar 26, 20 7:55 am     Reply with quote

Prior to reading all of the thoughtful responses in this thread I was of the mind that I would be hitting some solo sessions in the next couple weeks. But there are many good points to ponder here. I'm convinced that holding off, for now, is the way that I will play it. As I've said to my family several times over the past couple of weeks, the collective sacrifices that have been made so far are enormous. Making these small, daily decisions to do our best is a small ask in comparison. I really like knowing that in the US there is still a WE.

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ldhr

Since 21 Jul 2009
1470 Posts
Hood River
XTreme Poster



PostThu Mar 26, 20 8:09 am     Reply with quote

Oregon state parks are closed.
Event site and Hood River beaches are closed.
Washington state parks are closed.
Best chance to stop the spread of the Covid-19..... 100% compliance..... stay home for the duration.

Rooster Rock - closed.
Viento - closed.
All Hood River launches (Event Site -> Spit) - closed.
Rowena - closed.
Swell City - closed.
Hatchery - closed.
Doug's Beach - closed.
Rufus, The Wall - closed.
Roosevelt - closed.
Three Mile - closed.

Mosier Rock Creek - ?
Arlington - ?

Last edited by ldhr on Thu Mar 26, 20 10:03 am; edited 1 time in total

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dude abides

Since 06 Apr 2014
52 Posts
Bend, OR
 



PostThu Mar 26, 20 9:05 am    gorge east Reply with quote

Dude will abide.

Thanks everyone for posting. You completely guilted me into staying put and turns out Rufus Landing is closed anyway...

additional info here:
https://www.nwp.usace.army.mil/Media/News/Article/2119119/update-to-corps-recreation-closures-related-to-covid-19/

Guess I will mtn bike and try not to feel guilty about that.

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I don’t know about you, but I take comfort in that, knowin’ he’s out there. The Dude. Takin’ ‘er easy for all us sinners. - The Stranger

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Windian

Since 28 Apr 2008
880 Posts
Newport, OR
NEWPORT OG



PostThu Mar 26, 20 10:51 am     Reply with quote

Okay, after reading the posts that followed mine I would like to address the reasons for not kiting.

If you have to drive outside of your own community (home) for recreating, then you should not go kiting.

If you have to trespass across closed access land to recreate, then you should not go kiting.

If you cannot maintain proper social distancing protocols at the launch and landing spot, then you should not go kiting.

If you are sick with any bug right now, then you should not go kiting and you should quarantine yourself inside your home and not go out in public.

Here in Newport, my home, has been declared off limits to nonresidents other than emergency personnel and truck drivers for bringing in supplies. There are only about half a dozen local Newport kiters so I am not concerned with my launching of a kite would cause a mass hysteria of kiters bombarding the beach.

Even with the tight restrictions being enforced here in Lincoln County many of the restaurants are still open for take out, the golf courses are open for business and other public venues are still operating. The risk of virus transmission is way higher going to the grocery store, bank or post office than it is going kiting by myself at a beach.

Some might claim my nonessential activity is high risk and could create a greater demand on medical services if I were injured kiting. Well, driving in my car and passing thru intersections at high speeds on my way to the grocery store is way riskier than kiting. If I were to just stay home I would still be climbing a ladder to clean the gutters, running a chainsaw to cut firewood, beekeeping with stinging insects, and gardening with sharp tools. All of these activities equally as dangerous as kiting if not more so. And of all the recreational activities that I participate in these days, going riding on my mountain bike easily tops everything for potential injury and nobody seems to be targeting it as an activity that has to stop.

I looked on the webcam this morning at the local beaches, people are out surfing and others are walking on the beach. Bikers are happily riding the Bay Road and other forms of recreation are being practiced here in Newport in responsible ways.

Yes, I am planning to go kiting when the wind blows and I will be practicing all the guidelines emphasized in this state parks document for minimizing possible virus transmission.

https://oregonstateparks.org/index.cfm?do=v.dsp_featureArticle&articleId=272

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bigjohn

Since 13 Mar 2012
663 Posts

Addicted



PostThu Mar 26, 20 1:51 pm     Reply with quote

A lot of really good posts here on both sides of the fence.

I won't judge anyone I see out kiting.

The personal choice I am making is based upon the thought that if we stop the spread early we can all get out on the water sooner.

I would prefer to shut everything down for 3-4 weeks than to spend 6 months (or more) playing whack-a-mole

So for me I am currently not leaving my house except for required tasks. I believe if everybody follows this practice we can kick this thing fast.

Unfortunately, I don't consider kiting to be a required task.... well at least not for the immediate moment...

Ask me again in a month and you may see me kiting with swim goggles and a gas mask.

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Gman

Since 11 Feb 2006
4907 Posts
Portland
Unstrapped



PostThu Mar 26, 20 2:19 pm     Reply with quote

eric wrote:
As a point of reference I did a “stealth kite” session yesterday and basically felt guilty the whole time. There was no joy.

I’m taking a break



this was in my head - solo session last weekend...
(did nearly get run over by the only other river user - bass boat charging into 25kts of wind - karma Shocked )

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shred_da_gorge

Since 12 Nov 2008
1251 Posts
Local, not Low Cal
XTreme Poster



PostThu Mar 26, 20 3:52 pm     Reply with quote

If you were in California the activity would be considered recreation which is non-essential, so there could actually be legal consequences. I've debated this myself, as we have some decent early-season conditions today and I'm off, also just invested in some nice cold-weather gear I wanted to try (Mystic neoprene hoody).

The factors for me are mostly that in early season there is elevated risk: wind is gustier, water and air are colder, and I haven't been on the water for a few months now. My wife is standing in the cold swabbing patients at a drive-through right now and our temporary housemate starts in the ER tomorrow. Our first responders are taxed and ERs are full here. Police are already dealing with parks being overwhelmed, so I went out for a road bike ride instead... then learned my good friend just T-boned a car doing 30 MPH (yeah there are fewer cars on the road but some of the drivers are just driving stupid like it's the wild west!).

So in pondering this ethical question, I've decided instead to support small businesses by ordering lots of takeout food and alcohol and staying inside more often than not. Oh, and giving blood too (before the alcohol... ;-).

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bigjohn

Since 13 Mar 2012
663 Posts

Addicted



PostThu Mar 26, 20 4:28 pm     Reply with quote

US just leapfrogged ahead of all other countries in terms of total cases.
Almost 17,000 new cases today and the ticker is still growing.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries

Oregon has 50 new cases today
Washington has > 3,200 new cases today
Washington had 617 new cases and 3207 total cases on 3/26/20

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/

Stay safe out there


Edited 3/27 to properly reflect statistics

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Kiting starts at 40MPH

Last edited by bigjohn on Fri Mar 27, 20 8:04 am; edited 1 time in total

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Nak

Since 19 May 2005
4199 Posts
Camas
XTreme Poster

CGKA Member


PostThu Mar 26, 20 5:51 pm     Reply with quote

Washington has 619 new diagnosed cases today, about 3200 total.

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Ho-Toe

Since 30 Apr 2014
231 Posts
pissed-off science guy like Bill Nye
CO2 quantifier & upwelling specialist



PostThu Mar 26, 20 6:12 pm    numbers & food for thought Reply with quote

There are lots of numbers being thrown about lately, mostly with little context: new cases, recovered patients, deaths, etc.

One thing we can gather from a number of countries where this virus has been making its rounds longer than it has in the US (e.g. South Korea, whose statistics are likely more trustworthy than, say, China's) is that there is a 1 - 2% fatality rate among those who contract this virus. This 1 - 2% death rate is borne out by other nations' statistics.

Today's Oregonian says that there are 11 deaths statewide, among 318 known cases. This implies a 3.5% fatality rate here, but that is not an accurate implication. The virus is not more lethal here in Oregon, rather, this spread is an artifact of inadequate testing. 11 deaths implies there are between 550 - 1100 cases statewide. This means that there are a lot more carriers out there than our first responders are able to document, likely substantially more carriers if you consider the asymptomatic individuals who never were tested in those countries who calculated the 1 - 2% fatality rate. And of course cases in OR and everywhere else are also heterogeneously distributed geographically...

My point? Be careful. Common sense dictates that there are a lot more carriers out there than we think there are.

Wash your hands!!!

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Kraemer

Since 24 Apr 2006
1735 Posts
Sky Pilot
Unicorn Captain



PostThu Mar 26, 20 8:26 pm     Reply with quote

eric wrote:
As a point of reference I did a “stealth kite” session yesterday and basically felt guilty the whole time. There was no joy.

I’m taking a break


I told my backcountry buddy the same thing today. I cant go because I will feel the guilty. That was today. Hopefully tomorrow will be different. Lockdown sucks.

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Nak

Since 19 May 2005
4199 Posts
Camas
XTreme Poster

CGKA Member


PostFri Mar 27, 20 7:50 am     Reply with quote

Windian wrote:

If you have to drive outside of your own community (home) for recreating, then you should not go kiting.


This is just rationalizing your desire to kite. You live near it, so it's OK. Reality check: it's either OK or it's not. If I drive from Camas to Hood River, I am not putting anyone at risk that you aren't putting at risk. So when you say you're going kiting, you are in fact inviting everyone that can drive to your spot to also go kiting.

I'm not judging, and I'm not going to weigh in on one side or the other. I personally am not kiting through the lock down. But saying it's OK for locals to kite but not someone who drives an unspecified distance, that's just localism--not science. If you don't want visitors coming to your community to kite, then don't invite them by putting up a large colorful invitation over the river.

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Nak

Since 19 May 2005
4199 Posts
Camas
XTreme Poster

CGKA Member


PostFri Mar 27, 20 7:55 am    Re: numbers & food for thought Reply with quote

Ho-Toe wrote:

One thing we can gather from a number of countries where this virus has been making its rounds longer than it has in the US (e.g. South Korea, whose statistics are likely more trustworthy than, say, China's) is that there is a 1 - 2% fatality rate among those who contract this virus. This 1 - 2% death rate is borne out by other nations' statistics.
!


Actually, i don't think we know the death rate. Correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that the only country to actually try and test a representative sample of the population has been Iceland.

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Windian

Since 28 Apr 2008
880 Posts
Newport, OR
NEWPORT OG



PostFri Mar 27, 20 9:18 am     Reply with quote

Nak wrote:
If I drive from Camas to Hood River, I am not putting anyone at risk that you aren't putting at risk. So when you say you're going kiting, you are in fact inviting everyone that can drive to your spot to also go kiting.

I'm not judging, and I'm not going to weigh in on one side or the other. I personally am not kiting through the lock down. But saying it's OK for locals to kite but not someone who drives an unspecified distance, that's just localism--not science. If you don't want visitors coming to your community to kite, then don't invite them by putting up a large colorful invitation over the river.


The way this virus got out of Wuhan was by humans leaving Wuhan and traveling to other areas. If you are infected and live and stay in Camas, then the only people you are putting at risk are others that live in Camas. If you travel to Hood River, then you are now putting those HR residents in jeopardy of infection.

It was not my decision to put Lincoln County as off limits to nonresidents, but I do support the decision made by our county commissioners. Not because I don't want people kiting here, but because I don't want people coming here that could be infected.

"Go Home and Stay Home" means just that. Don't be traveling around the state anywhere right now for visiting family and friends, recreation, nonessential business, etc. The only people traveling from one community to another should be medical and emergency personnel, people distributing needed supplies, and individuals needing to commute for working essential jobs.

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