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Race event in the mouth of Klickitat?
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user124

Since 02 Aug 2012
264 Posts
Portland
Obsessed



PostWed Jul 25, 18 9:25 pm     Reply with quote

5walnut10 wrote:
This has been discussed in length already on other threads.

Long story short what’s a “legal” event doesn’t matter if it’s done without tact. As it’s been said repeatedly, access is not legal on foot to Lyle right now. The people who are able to look the other way on that can stop at any moment.

So, who has a better relationship with the rail? Kiters or fishers? Kiters who cross their tracks every day and hold events that pose a hazard to the tracks from the user and spectators? Or the fishermen who launch from a ramp and then cruise around in the water?

There are many variables at play and as we may think our cause is #1 to push for what we want, there are many other user groups who are far more organized and well funded to go to battle for their interests if we cause trouble.


I've seen some of the other threads I think you refer to, but their not all pertinent to this specific situation. There is also a ton of hyperbole and conjecture.

No one is arguing for an event without tact. There are a lot of "ifs" here in terms of if this event will be run in the correct way.

You mentioned a number of theoretical concerns. Do the fisher-people actually have a relationship with the railroad, and does the railroad even care enough to side with kiters vs fishers? Do the klickitat mouth fishers have an organized and funded political group or lobbying arm? I honestly don't know the answers to all these questions and maybe it's a serious enough concern that the event should be cancelled. But perhaps we should also try to separate the real threats from the hypothetical before automatically condemning a potentially positive kiting event put on by a reputable local business.

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Nevo

Since 01 Aug 2014
94 Posts

 



PostWed Jul 25, 18 10:38 pm     Reply with quote

Have you not read the whole thread? The fishers and an environmental group got this site shut down in the 90's apparently.

We don't cross the tracks legally. We are undoubtedly lower on the food chain than fishers to the rail if push comes to shove.

I talked with Dale directly. I've worked on nationwide access issues via the rock climbing realm. I've seen local climbing communities lose their climb sites. In talking with Dale he seemed a very long way from having tact in the plan here. Good intentions. Not tact.

"I'll talk to a person I know who fishes."

"I'll talk to someone who knows the tribes."

Having the event already posted with a plan of talking to a couple of people here and there doesn't seem like a heavy investment in considering the potential long term impacts.

The CGKA has put work in to get to this point:
"The fishing community and native americans, along with the Lyle community have all expressed interest in working with the kite community on the future access developments at the Lyle Sandbar, but it is contingent only upon the kite community agreeing to remain on the upwind side of the sandbar.
Most kiters abide by this agreement, and understand that it is imperative we remain a desired partner in future positive access changes."

Are you saying you don't understand this?

user124 wrote:


I've seen some of the other threads I think you refer to, but their not all pertinent to this specific situation. There is also a ton of hyperbole and conjecture.

No one is arguing for an event without tact. There are a lot of "ifs" here in terms of if this event will be run in the correct way.

You mentioned a number of theoretical concerns. Do the fisher-people actually have a relationship with the railroad, and does the railroad even care enough to side with kiters vs fishers? Do the klickitat mouth fishers have an organized and funded political group or lobbying arm? I honestly don't know the answers to all these questions and maybe it's a serious enough concern that the event should be cancelled. But perhaps we should also try to separate the real threats from the hypothetical before automatically condemning a potentially positive kiting event put on by a reputable local business.

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user124

Since 02 Aug 2012
264 Posts
Portland
Obsessed



PostThu Jul 26, 18 9:10 am     Reply with quote

5walnut10 wrote:
Have you not read the whole thread? The fishers and an environmental group got this site shut down in the 90's apparently.

We don't cross the tracks legally. We are undoubtedly lower on the food chain than fishers to the rail if push comes to shove.

I talked with Dale directly. I've worked on nationwide access issues via the rock climbing realm. I've seen local climbing communities lose their climb sites. In talking with Dale he seemed a very long way from having tact in the plan here. Good intentions. Not tact.

"I'll talk to a person I know who fishes."

"I'll talk to someone who knows the tribes."

Having the event already posted with a plan of talking to a couple of people here and there doesn't seem like a heavy investment in considering the potential long term impacts.

The CGKA has put work in to get to this point:
"The fishing community and native americans, along with the Lyle community have all expressed interest in working with the kite community on the future access developments at the Lyle Sandbar, but it is contingent only upon the kite community agreeing to remain on the upwind side of the sandbar.
Most kiters abide by this agreement, and understand that it is imperative we remain a desired partner in future positive access changes."

Are you saying you don't understand this?


You have obviously made up your mind already so further discussion is probably moot.

Your quote from CGKA was in reference to the plan previously under discussion at the Lyle city council meetings to build a pedestrian bridge over/under the tracks. Correct me if I'm wrong but my understanding is that plan is dead in the water because it requires a much too expensive ADA compliant solution, so I'm not sure of the relevance here.

And while I agree with trying to encourage Dale/SAK to run a responsible event, I don't agree with your approach of public shaming and condemnation of the only company currently providing legal access to the Lyle sandbar.

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Nevo

Since 01 Aug 2014
94 Posts

 



PostThu Jul 26, 18 9:50 am     Reply with quote

If there’s negativity aimed at me but it creates pressure for this event to be done right or not at all then I’m okay with that. Having seen recreational access lost before it’s a touchy subject for me.

I think this is an especially touchy subject BECAUSE SAK has legal access. If they jeapordize access for the rest of us it has little impact on them. If anything, it could be viewed as better for them if access got shut down. Then they’d have a private beach for lessons. Not saying that’s their intent, but it’s an idea worth considering.

As far as the cgka and the previous attempt at getting legal access:
Maybe you and I just see that work differently. Just because one access solution didn’t pan out doesn’t mean we should burn the hard built bridges with those other user groups. They have legal access, we don’t.

I was originally in support of them trying to pull off the event until I learned more about the history of speed sailing there.

If this event jeapordizes relationships with other user groups by doing the only thing we’ve been asked to avoid... and is all about doing nearly the exact same type of sailing that got it shut down in the first place... I’m just having a hard time grasping why this should be a rushed into? So many red flags!

I haven’t kited there in the fall. Do east winds create glassy conditions on the west side of the sandbar that would be appropriate? I don’t know. My mind isn’t set in stone but yes, I’m extremely concerned about a commercial operation running an event like this without doing everything possible to protect access for all.

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Kmun

Since 05 Jul 2009
173 Posts

Stoked



PostThu Jul 26, 18 10:32 am    A Bad Idea Reply with quote

If -then:

1. Is this speed contest a fully supported by the city of Lyle &/or the Tribe?
2. Will the participants be local residents of Lyle?
3. Will this event be a financial windfall for Lyle?
4. Will the "one time" exception to riding the river mouth dissuade the temptation of follow-on poaching by just anyone on any day from sneaking in just one flash-rip over the disputed area?

If the answer is "NO" then this event is a VERY short sighted idea.

The regular users of the Lyle sandbar (kiters and many NON-Kiters) do not want interlopers screwing up a sweet low profile "park".

I know of many resident outdoor sports enthusiasts that use the sandbar who don't always side with the Tribe, but in this case will side with fisher people and the Tribes' position (preventing this "Event" from happening). They have a year around interest in this "free space" and do not want a one-off Event triggering both the Railroad and the Tribe from coming down (officially or unofficially) on the locals' daily use of the sandbar.

A word to the wise, unless otherwise.

Do NOT kick the hornets nest!

Last edited by Kmun on Sun Jul 29, 18 11:14 am; edited 1 time in total

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Nevo

Since 01 Aug 2014
94 Posts

 



PostThu Jul 26, 18 11:03 am    Re: A Bad Idea Reply with quote

I just got off the phone with the county:

They have no idea that this event is happening, no permits have been issued or requested. No information has been given to them.

Their position is that yes, they should have been contacted. Yes, they are concerned about the possibility of a large turnout with minimal parking and no known crowd control plan for safety on the tracks.

They also said that requesting a permit and providing all of this information to them now is quite unreasonable for it to be properly permitted in time.

I’ve also put some feelers out to get the rest of the answers to the questions you’ve posted here.

So yes, this sounds very short sighted and like a very bad idea.


Kmun wrote:
If -then:

1. Is this speed contest a fully supported by the city of Lyle &/or the Tribe?
2. Will the participants be local residents of Lyle?
3. Will this event be a financial windfall for Lyle?
4. Will the "one time" exception to riding the river mouth dissuade the temptation of follow-on poaching by just anyone on any day from sneaking in just one flash-rip over the disputed area?

If the answer is "NO" then this event is a VERY short sighted idea.

The regular users of the Lyle sandbar (kiters and many NON-Kiters) do not want interlopers screwing up a sweet low profile "park".

I know of many resident outdoor sports enthusiasts that use the sandbar who don't always side with the Tribe, but in this case will side with fisher people and the Tribes' position (preventing this "Event" from happening). They have a year around interest in this "free space" and do not one a one-off Event triggering both the Railroad and the Tribe from coming down (officially or unofficially) on daily use of the sandbar.

A word to the wise, unless otherwise.

Do NOT kick the hornets nest!

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wylieflyote

Since 30 Jun 2006
1279 Posts
Puget Sound & Wa. Coast
XTreme Poster



PostThu Jul 26, 18 11:20 am     Reply with quote

"The event will be held in Lyle at the SAK shop and on the deck of the Memaloose wine tasting room as the contestants battle it out on the Klickitat River"
Who the hell are these people? Anyone commenting here ever seen this Lyle SAK "shop"? I guess I've been away too long. What a disaster in the making.

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Kip Wylie

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SAKA

Since 04 Jul 2016
12 Posts
Portland
 



PostThu Jul 26, 18 11:46 am    2018 KLICKITAT SPEED RUN CANCELLED Reply with quote

Thank you all for sharing your feedback and concerns. It appears that we opened a can of worms here, so we’d like to clear a few things up.

First and foremost, SA Kitesurf has no intention of doing anything in Lyle that would compromise access to the sandbar or be detrimental and/or disrespectful to the community, different user groups, or the environment.

Just a little about us – at the heart of our company, we are working to create and build community, make kiteboarding accessible to groups that may not otherwise have access to the sport, boost the local economy, and work with local and native populations alike. A portion of the income we receive from each and every one of our lessons is donated to a local non-profit organization, we donate lessons for fundraisers and events, and any profit from the proposed Klickitat Speed Run was slotted to go right back into the community (not in any way profitable for our business). We are a small business, but we do what we can. I mention all of this simply to clear the air about SA Kitesurf’s motivations. We, like all of you, want to maintain access to the sandbar, as well as maintain positive relationships with our fellow kiteboarders and all stakeholders in the area.

The Klickitat Speed Run was planned as a small pop-up amateur race where all contestants would be shuttled to the sandbar via boat, and all spectators would view the event from our shop (which overlooks the river) and from the deck of the Memaloose/Idiot’s Grace Wine Tasting Room – 34 State Street, Lyle, WA (so, no crossing the railroad tracks). One person would race at a time – so just one kiter in the river – very low impact. The goal was simply to host an event where we could all have fun.

We have attended public meetings in Lyle over the past few years, and most recently just a month or so ago regarding the access issue to the sandbar. We will continue to stay involved and will continue to try to build relationships that may make access to the sandbar possible in the future. We know it is a sensitive topic. So, the information that you all really want to hear:

We will not host any events in the Klickitat River this year. The 2018 KLICKITAT SPEED RUN IS CANCELLED UNTIL FURTHER NOTICE.

That said, we have a lot of other fun things planned for the month of August in Lyle at the SAK shop – Yoga for kiteboarders on the deck of the Memaloose/Idiot’s Grace Wine Tasting Room on Saturday mornings at 9:30 a.m.; First Friday Braai (BBQ) with a traditional South African Potijiekos (stew) at 8 p.m. on 8/3; Free family kite at 10 a.m. on 8/12 (fly the trainer kite with your kids); wave camps at the coast, and a Show and Tell where we get together so that you can show photos from your favorite kite trips, meet fellow kiters, and share your experiences about travel. Please plan to join us!

If you still have questions or concerns, feel free to call or better yet, stop by the shop and meet us! Very Happy

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Dale McCann
OWNER
SA Kitesurf Adventures
Lyle WA

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SalmonSlayer

Since 27 Nov 2005
601 Posts

Addicted

CGKA Member


PostThu Jul 26, 18 11:51 am    Re: A Bad Idea Reply with quote

5walnut10 wrote:
.

They also said that requesting a permit and providing all of this information to them now is quite unreasonable for it to be properly permitted in time.


Is the river mouth within the jurisdiction of the Lyle govt? Do they have any legal control over the river mouth? As far as I know their jurisdiction stop at the east side of the bridge and includes Lyle Point, but not the water. If the river mouth was accessed from as launch across and down river, I don't believe the town of Lyle has a say or any skin in the game. Maybe someone can clear that up.




1. Is this speed contest a fully supported by the city of Lyle &/or the Tribe? Do they have any legal authority over the river mouth? If not, their support is not legally necessary.
2. Will the participants be local residents of Lyle? How is this legally or otherwise relevant in any way? Do residents have different rights than non-residents regarding river mouth use?
3. Will this event be a financial windfall for Lyle? Probably, but how is this a criteria or a relevant point for staging this event?
4. Will the "one time" exception to riding the river mouth dissuade the temptation of follow-on poaching by just anyone on any day from sneaking in just one flash-rip over the disputed area? To be accurate, it is not "poaching". It is exercising a legal right to access navigable waters.

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Nevo

Since 01 Aug 2014
94 Posts

 



PostThu Jul 26, 18 11:52 am    Re: 2018 KLICKITAT SPEED RUN CANCELLED Reply with quote

Thanks Dale!

Good choice I think. Hopefully you can pull it off in the future if things stabilize, relationships grow, and safety concerns are mitigated.

SAKA wrote:
Thank you all for sharing your feedback and concerns. It appears that we opened a can of worms here, so we’d like to clear a few things up.

First and foremost, SA Kitesurf has no intention of doing anything in Lyle that would compromise access to the sandbar or be detrimental and/or disrespectful to the community, different user groups, or the environment.

Just a little about us – at the heart of our company, we are working to create and build community, make kiteboarding accessible to groups that may not otherwise have access to the sport, boost the local economy, and work with local and native populations alike. A portion of the income we receive from each and every one of our lessons is donated to a local non-profit organization, we donate lessons for fundraisers and events, and any profit from the proposed Klickitat Speed Run was slotted to go right back into the community (not in any way profitable for our business). We are a small business, but we do what we can. I mention all of this simply to clear the air about SA Kitesurf’s motivations. We, like all of you, want to maintain access to the sandbar, as well as maintain positive relationships with our fellow kiteboarders and all stakeholders in the area.

The Klickitat Speed Run was planned as a small pop-up amateur race where all contestants would be shuttled to the sandbar via boat, and all spectators would view the event from our shop (which overlooks the river) and from the deck of the Memaloose/Idiot’s Grace Wine Tasting Room – 34 State Street, Lyle, WA (so, no crossing the railroad tracks). One person would race at a time – so just one kiter in the river – very low impact. The goal was simply to host an event where we could all have fun.

We have attended public meetings in Lyle over the past few years, and most recently just a month or so ago regarding the access issue to the sandbar. We will continue to stay involved and will continue to try to build relationships that may make access to the sandbar possible in the future. We know it is a sensitive topic. So, the information that you all really want to hear:

We will not host any events in the Klickitat River this year. The 2018 KLICKITAT SPEED RUN IS CANCELLED UNTIL FURTHER NOTICE.

That said, we have a lot of other fun things planned for the month of August in Lyle at the SAK shop – Yoga for kiteboarders on the deck of the Memaloose/Idiot’s Grace Wine Tasting Room on Saturday mornings at 9:30 a.m.; First Friday Braai (BBQ) with a traditional South African Potijiekos (stew) at 8 p.m. on 8/3; Free family kite at 10 a.m. on 8/12 (fly the trainer kite with your kids); wave camps at the coast, and a Show and Tell where we get together so that you can show photos from your favorite kite trips, meet fellow kiters, and share your experiences about travel. Please plan to join us!

If you still have questions or concerns, feel free to call or better yet, stop by the shop and meet us! Very Happy

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Nevo

Since 01 Aug 2014
94 Posts

 



PostThu Jul 26, 18 1:45 pm     Reply with quote

I’d like to reiterate that all of my interactions with SAK and the owners were friendly. I do have a strong stance about this topic but do not believe they had any ill will towards the kite community, nor should their attempt to bring the community together for an event reflect poorly upon them as business owners.

I do think there’s great opportunities in the future and that they are an ally to kiters and the Lyle community. They’ve been nothing but friendly any time I’ve seen them at the beach.

I’m glad this event isn’t happening right now, but I hope their hard work in the future could pay off for fun events to come.

I also hope this attempt at an event breathes new life into developing relationships with the groups that are involved with other forms of recreation at the same site.

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moondog

Since 15 Aug 2007
456 Posts
white salmon
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CGKA Member


PostThu Jul 26, 18 4:02 pm     Reply with quote

Thanks Saka for explaining your organization and motives to hold this event. After talking with you today I felt you have the best intentions, just the wrong place. Maybe in the future with a legal access this will come to fruition. I also appreciate you accessing the sandbar in the legal way via public access and motorized raft. It could be a side business for the many liters that want to kite at Lyle.
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KOF

Since 30 Mar 2011
37 Posts
Seattle
 



PostThu Jul 26, 18 4:46 pm     Reply with quote

Doesn’t SA kite teach at Lyle? Was this a promotional event for the school? I wish open access across the tracks will get resolved quickly

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bigjohn

Since 13 Mar 2012
395 Posts

Obsessed



PostThu Jul 26, 18 9:42 pm     Reply with quote

There's a lot of speculation on this thread...

Let me add to it a little Wink

It is a generally accepted belief that we will always be able to access all kite locations via boat. Let's call this the "worst case scenario" condition. It's public land / water and we can do what we want on it.

I believe some have used this basis to suggest we can push the limit.

I would like to challenge this opinion.

Has anyone tried snow kiting on Mt. Hood Recently?

If you poke the hornets nest LAWS WILL BE MADE!!! And not in our favor.

I'm happy to see that this event has been cancelled. Despite the fact that the event promoters appear to be attempting to promote our sport and generate good will for their local community I fear their efforts could easily have backfired.

This also applies for anyone who chooses to kite in the mouth of the Klickitat. It doesn't matter that you don't believe your actions affect fish runs. What matters is that others do (and they are probably right). This is an important issue, and an issue that has the ability to change laws.

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coupdevill

Since 09 Mar 2016
77 Posts
Hood River, OR
 



PostThu Jul 26, 18 9:43 pm    Re: 2018 KLICKITAT SPEED RUN CANCELLED Reply with quote

SAKA wrote:
Thank you all for sharing your feedback and concerns. It appears that we opened a can of worms here, so we’d like to clear a few things up.

First and foremost, SA Kitesurf has no intention of doing anything in Lyle that would compromise access to the sandbar or be detrimental and/or disrespectful to the community, different user groups, or the environment.

Just a little about us – at the heart of our company, we are working to create and build community, make kiteboarding accessible to groups that may not otherwise have access to the sport, boost the local economy, and work with local and native populations alike. A portion of the income we receive from each and every one of our lessons is donated to a local non-profit organization, we donate lessons for fundraisers and events, and any profit from the proposed Klickitat Speed Run was slotted to go right back into the community (not in any way profitable for our business). We are a small business, but we do what we can. I mention all of this simply to clear the air about SA Kitesurf’s motivations. We, like all of you, want to maintain access to the sandbar, as well as maintain positive relationships with our fellow kiteboarders and all stakeholders in the area.

The Klickitat Speed Run was planned as a small pop-up amateur race where all contestants would be shuttled to the sandbar via boat, and all spectators would view the event from our shop (which overlooks the river) and from the deck of the Memaloose/Idiot’s Grace Wine Tasting Room – 34 State Street, Lyle, WA (so, no crossing the railroad tracks). One person would race at a time – so just one kiter in the river – very low impact. The goal was simply to host an event where we could all have fun.

We have attended public meetings in Lyle over the past few years, and most recently just a month or so ago regarding the access issue to the sandbar. We will continue to stay involved and will continue to try to build relationships that may make access to the sandbar possible in the future. We know it is a sensitive topic. So, the information that you all really want to hear:

We will not host any events in the Klickitat River this year. The 2018 KLICKITAT SPEED RUN IS CANCELLED UNTIL FURTHER NOTICE.

That said, we have a lot of other fun things planned for the month of August in Lyle at the SAK shop – Yoga for kiteboarders on the deck of the Memaloose/Idiot’s Grace Wine Tasting Room on Saturday mornings at 9:30 a.m.; First Friday Braai (BBQ) with a traditional South African Potijiekos (stew) at 8 p.m. on 8/3; Free family kite at 10 a.m. on 8/12 (fly the trainer kite with your kids); wave camps at the coast, and a Show and Tell where we get together so that you can show photos from your favorite kite trips, meet fellow kiters, and share your experiences about travel. Please plan to join us!

If you still have questions or concerns, feel free to call or better yet, stop by the shop and meet us! Very Happy


What a class act, I'll stop by next time I'm in Lyle.

coup

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teabagger

Since 15 Jun 2012
47 Posts

 

CGKA Member


PostSun Aug 12, 18 11:47 am     Reply with quote

Heard through multiple channels that they started ticketing kiters at Lyle again, and that tickets are $1000 and a felony charge (after not patrolling for a long time). Haven't been out there since I heard that, don't need a felony on my record for kiting. Thanks South Africa kite school.

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Justsmile

Since 20 Jul 2009
1353 Posts
Not Portland
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PostSun Aug 12, 18 12:43 pm     Reply with quote

Now that the river has dropped again and will continue to drop go park by the Indian prop boat ramp or access just east of the river. We got permission to park there years ago from the tribal police. You can wade right across the river or better yet use something to paddle over or pull a floatie. Then you can give the bnsf police the big finger as they are waiting for you to come back over the tracks.
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