Northwest Kiteboarding
Forum | Classifieds | Lost & Found | CGKA | Industry | Sensors | Forecast | Spots | Seattle | Decals | RSS | Facebook

Events | Photos | Search | Register | Profile | Log in to check your messages | Log in 

Race event in the mouth of Klickitat?
Page 1, 2, 3  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Northwest Kiteboarding -> Gorge / Portland / Oregon Coast
previous topic :: next topic  
Author Message
Nevo

Since 01 Aug 2014
74 Posts

 



PostWed Jul 25, 18 5:24 am    Race event in the mouth of Klickitat? Reply with quote

Are all access issues now cleared and we are all welcome to kite and hold events in the mouth of the klickitat?

Or: Has Lyle, the fishermen, and the Native American community granted us access for a single day event?

SAK (sakitesurfadventures.com) is hosting a top speed race event in the mouth of the klickitat since they have boats to access the sandbar.

Call me crazy but this sounds like it jeopardizes access for everyone else to the benefit of a kite school. Where will all those kiters go if that launch gets permanently closed?

If all the details are in order and the CGKA is also in support of this then it sounds like some great work is being done. If not, this sounds like a really bad idea since the last I heard from the CGKA was:

“The fishing community and native americans, along with the Lyle community have all expressed interest in working with the kite community on the future access developments at the Lyle Sandbar, but it is contingent only upon the kite community agreeing to remain on the upwind side of the sandbar.
Most kiters abide by this agreement, and understand that it is imperative we remain a desired partner in future positive access changes.”

This event sounds like a 180 from all of those user groups.

Happy to apologize if I am in the wrong about this.

View user's profile Send private message
ldhr

Since 21 Jul 2009
989 Posts
Hood River
Opinionated



PostWed Jul 25, 18 6:16 am     Reply with quote

Prime fishing season too.
Steelhead and Salmon running up the Klick at that time.

View user's profile Send private message
Nevo

Since 01 Aug 2014
74 Posts

 



PostWed Jul 25, 18 6:37 am     Reply with quote

ldhr wrote:
Prime fishing season too.
Steelhead and Salmon running up the Klick at that time.


Exactly. I’m not saying it’s impossible, but if the position of Lyle, the fisherman, and the Native Americans is that they will work with us as long as we honor their 1 single request (stay upwind of the sandbar)... it seems shocking that the first change we see is them giving us the blessing to kite there.

View user's profile Send private message
cgka

Since 18 Jul 2006
263 Posts

Obsessed



PostWed Jul 25, 18 8:19 am     Reply with quote

I know this is a mouthful of reading, so sorry, but it is not easy to explain in just one sentence.

In the early 90's the Klickitat Sandbar was the premiere North American Speedsailing location for windsurfers, with the North American records being set and broken regularly.
Although world renowned as a speed spot, there were typically no more than 10-20 sailors on a busy day.
https://www.americanwindsurfer.com/articles/need-for-speed/
However, this all ended when a combination of efforts between the fishing community (who were concerned with the effects on the fishing habitat) and the River Keepers environmental organization (who were concerned about the bird habitat in the area scared off by the sails).
End of an era.

Some basic legal facts for this launch still stand (but have not really been enforced in a couple of years, due to low key self regulation by the local community - aka Fight Club rules)
1) It is still illegal to park on the south side of the road, and it is especially illegal to park anywhere near the emergency access road.
2) It is still illegal to cross the highway. Yes, it is a highway, with a 50(?)mph speed limit. Cars do not expect to see pedestrians wandering across a 50mph section of road.
*In order to get a crosswalk installed, the speedlimit would have to be changed to 35 or 40mph by WSDOT (could be possible. John Mooney from CGKA negotiated the speed limit to be reduced at White Salmon for safety reasons)
3) And finally, it is still a Felony Crime to be caught crossing Railroad tracks illegally anywhere in the USA. A felony crime is with a $1000-2000 fine and is a permanent mark on your criminal record.

For a couple of years the CGKA (with support form the CGWA) negotiated with WSDOT and the railroad to gain legal crossing access to the sandbar.
The City of Lyle welcomed kiteboarding, but the city limit ends at the bridge, so they have no influence on the situation.
WSDOT was willing to discuss options.
The Railroad was even open to ideas (as they were just finishing negotiating a deal with the CGWA at Dougs Beach) but there was not enough (year round) dry land on the sandbar side for establishing a crossing (not to mention the $450k-1Mil estimated cost).
At about that same time, some locals began sharing experiences of being ticketed for J-walking across the highway and there were incidents of Felony charges being given to kiters caught crossing the tracks.
When discussed with the railroad representatives, they informed the CGKA that when their train engineers either have to reduce speed for pedestrians or see any persons too close to the tracks when the train is passing, they report these incidents to their regional office, who then, if they feel a concern, in turn dispatch officials to patrol those sections of tracks. We were also informed that the officials regularly follow our social media postings and communications on NW Kite, Kite Forum and Facebook so that they could keep a gauge on the actions in this area.
Their ultimate long term resolution for this spot is to install a 2mile long cyclone fence with barbwire on the top to prevent pedestrian issues.
Henceforth our establishment of the Fight Club Rules.

In closing, lessons to take away from this.
All (non boating) access to Lyle Sandbar is illegal.
Being on the sandbar is not illegal.
The local fishing community does not want you in the river mouth.
The City of Lyle wants you to visit them and buy your beer, wine or snacks from them.
How you do it, is up to you. If you invite newbies without first informing them of the legal/illegal aspect, you are elevating the chances of this location being put back on the radar with WSDOT and the railroad officials.

See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil.
Or
Fight Club Rules
1st RULE: You do not talk about FIGHT CLUB.
2nd RULE: You DO NOT talk about FIGHT CLUB.

Thank you
CGKA

_________________
[b:13763ca0d3]The CGKA is your advocate for Kiteboarding in the Gorge! [i:13763ca0d3] Join now: [/i:13763ca0d3]GorgeKiter.com/join[/b:13763ca0d3]

View user's profile Send private message
Nevo

Since 01 Aug 2014
74 Posts

 



PostWed Jul 25, 18 9:18 am     Reply with quote

Thanks for the history lesson cgka. Good to know the additional details.

Does the cgka have an opinion then, if it is in the best interest for kiters to be having speed sailing events there even if the access is by boat? This seems to be in bad faith of the previously mentioned history.

If we are trying to work with and respect other other user groups, the highway, the railroad with the hope of one day having permanent legal access then this event seems to be profitable for SAK but not for the rest of us.

Could insulting these other groups accelerate the installation of that fence? If so, it would seem to mean a door is closing for the rest of us which would lead to a relatively private boat access only beach for SAK which isn’t cool.

Not trying to villainize SAK. However, their responses to me seem to only acknowledge the railroad access point, not the respect to other groups point. I think the whole community would benefit from a solid position on whether or not we should be kiting in the klickitat.

View user's profile Send private message
Singlemalt

Since 21 Jun 2015
120 Posts
White Salmon
Stoked



PostWed Jul 25, 18 9:59 am    The legend of the Bingen Speed Rock. Reply with quote

Back in days of old, there was a speed sailing event known as “The Gorge Tech Speed Check”. Held at the point of Bingen on the Port of Klickitat property. It was a fairly casual. A van with a radar gun was parked at the top of the riprap berm, and heats of sailors had 15-20 minutes or so to run at the gun.

They would go until everyone had plenty of runs or the wind died.

Advantages were the huge grassy lawn, tons of free parking, and scads of prizes from windsurfing companies. Winners were immortalized on the Speed Rock. Speeds approached 40 mph.

Downside were millfoil weed growing in the flat water, sharp rocks, and the occasional gill nets.

The Speed Checks were fun events. You didn’t have to a great windsurfer to compete. Plenty of crashing on the inside.

The Klickitat course evolved for more formal speed record attempts.

Today, the banks at Bingen are overgrown with indigo, an invasive plant. The same plant we were allowed to remove at Viento State Park.

And that concludes today’s history lesson.

Seems to me that putting on an event at Lyle is poking the hornet nest.

_________________
Pull the cork.

View user's profile Send private message
moondog

Since 15 Aug 2007
429 Posts
white salmon
Obsessed

CGKA Member


PostWed Jul 25, 18 10:31 am     Reply with quote

I reached out to the organization sponsoring the race and mentioned all the issues at Lyle. I haven't heard back from them yet.
_________________
moondog

View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Justsmile

Since 20 Jul 2009
1350 Posts
Not Portland
XTreme Poster



PostWed Jul 25, 18 10:52 am     Reply with quote

This race /speed events sounds like the most irresponsible thing us river users could do when we are trying to balance all the users and their interests. Why are we letting sa kite surf run a commercial business that could ruin our place to play!!
_________________
Take a breath; inhale

View user's profile Send private message
Nevo

Since 01 Aug 2014
74 Posts

 



PostWed Jul 25, 18 11:22 am     Reply with quote

I just had a conversation with Dale from SAK about the access issues as well as the sensitivity towards other user groups.

I asked for them to get full sign on from the local tribal groups, fishing groups, and the city. They aren’t there yet.

I emphasized repeatedly that the advertising for the event should state which groups have signed on (all of them should or no event in my opinion) and if so, that this is absolutely a single day sanctioned event. I also emphasized repeatedly that if the event goes, there needs to be multiple statements made, day of to participants and onlookers that this is not normal for this site and we should consider this a one time only event.

I also asked questions about what happens day of if the river is packed with fishers?

By the end of the conversation a few things were clear:

1. The event is not ready to be launched.

2. If all of the correct people are contacted and all user groups are respected then this is an opportunity to not only have a fun speed session, but to further educate the greater kite community about the sensitivity of this location.

So, I think Dale and SAK are in the right spirit, but they are a few steps ahead of themselves in posting this event publicly without blessings from all associated user groups. They have 17 days til the event so I’m not sure they can pull it off legitimately but I think they will try. Dale also admitted that if he needs to pull the event down because it’s too controversial that he will.

View user's profile Send private message
coupdevill

Since 09 Mar 2016
59 Posts
Hood River, OR
 



PostWed Jul 25, 18 12:11 pm     Reply with quote

This is not a good idea...

See 1st & 2nd Rule

coup

View user's profile Send private message
SalmonSlayer

Since 27 Nov 2005
590 Posts

Addicted

CGKA Member


PostWed Jul 25, 18 12:43 pm     Reply with quote

coupdevill wrote:
This is not a good idea...

See 1st & 2nd Rule

coup


The fight Club rule may work with peer pressure within the confines NWkite, but there are many forms of social media and Lyle is freely mentioned on FB in various user groups. You are not going to put that Geni back in the bottle. It is probably time to just move on and operate under the assumption that these rules will not be followed. Plan A is dead. Make plan B.

I think this speed event would be a heck of a lot of fun, but for the last few years we have seen requests to stay out of the river mouth because it supposedly scares the fish. I see no reason to expect future cooperation from kiters. Either it is or is not OK. regardless of if it is an event or an individual.

View user's profile Send private message
cgka

Since 18 Jul 2006
263 Posts

Obsessed



PostWed Jul 25, 18 1:03 pm     Reply with quote

Agreed. Thank you for taking the time to be a valuable and concerned member of the Fight Club kite community.

Some after thoughts on this.
During the windsurf speed events, there were a lot of issues with amateurs being able to dump speed at the finish of their runs, and kiting is way more difficult than windsurfing to dump power at the end of speed runs.

As per previous statements, with the CGKA, we really try to keep this area in low-pro mode as an organizational topic and rely on the local community (who know best) to keep it under the radar and harmonious.

Biggest immediate concern would be potential for road or railroad accidents happening with unknowing spectators stopping to watch.
This is how all of the deaths on our local tracks have occurred (spectators). 2 deaths at White Salmon bridge in past 10 years, and I think 1 maybe 2 at Lyle in same decade.
Yes, there have been more than a few people hit by trains, or mainly the sides of the trains over the past decade. They have a reason for wanting people clear of the tracks.

5walnut10 wrote:

So, I think Dale and SAK are in the right spirit, but they are a few steps ahead of themselves in posting this event publicly without blessings from all associated user groups. They have 17 days til the event so I’m not sure they can pull it off legitimately but I think they will try. Dale also admitted that if he needs to pull the event down because it’s too controversial that he will.

_________________
[b:13763ca0d3]The CGKA is your advocate for Kiteboarding in the Gorge! [i:13763ca0d3] Join now: [/i:13763ca0d3]GorgeKiter.com/join[/b:13763ca0d3]

View user's profile Send private message
Slappysan

Since 13 Jun 2012
213 Posts

Stoked



PostWed Jul 25, 18 1:46 pm     Reply with quote

cgka wrote:
there were a lot of issues with amateurs being able to dump speed at the finish of their runs, and kiting is way more difficult than windsurfing to dump power at the end of speed runs.


Kiters don't have to dump speed, just send it!

View user's profile Send private message
moondog

Since 15 Aug 2007
429 Posts
white salmon
Obsessed

CGKA Member


PostWed Jul 25, 18 5:28 pm     Reply with quote

Word on the street: He doesn't cross the tracks, he uses a jet ski to shuttle students to the sandbar from a legal access. Holding a race in the mouth is another story. Still haven't heard from him.
_________________
moondog

View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Nevo

Since 01 Aug 2014
74 Posts

 



PostWed Jul 25, 18 5:58 pm     Reply with quote

I hadn't even considered these variables CGKA.

An advertised event at this location will obviously bring any and all heat down on the kiteboard community at a scheduled time and location.

I highly doubt that SAK will have a large team of crowd control people to keep onlookers away from the tracks at the many different possible crossing locations.

If someone loses control and gets hurt or wraps their lines on the tracks? Game over for the whole community in a very public way.

I also wonder how the officials in Stevenson, Hood River, Arlington, etc. view our user group? If this event is botched I would think it will definitely pop up on radars all across the gorge. Next time we need or want something from a port they could reference the way this is handled.

My position has changed from thinking it's a slim possibility to thinking this is a very very bad call.

cgka wrote:
Agreed. Thank you for taking the time to be a valuable and concerned member of the Fight Club kite community.

Some after thoughts on this.
During the windsurf speed events, there were a lot of issues with amateurs being able to dump speed at the finish of their runs, and kiting is way more difficult than windsurfing to dump power at the end of speed runs.

As per previous statements, with the CGKA, we really try to keep this area in low-pro mode as an organizational topic and rely on the local community (who know best) to keep it under the radar and harmonious.

Biggest immediate concern would be potential for road or railroad accidents happening with unknowing spectators stopping to watch.
This is how all of the deaths on our local tracks have occurred (spectators). 2 deaths at White Salmon bridge in past 10 years, and I think 1 maybe 2 at Lyle in same decade.
Yes, there have been more than a few people hit by trains, or mainly the sides of the trains over the past decade. They have a reason for wanting people clear of the tracks.

5walnut10 wrote:

So, I think Dale and SAK are in the right spirit, but they are a few steps ahead of themselves in posting this event publicly without blessings from all associated user groups. They have 17 days til the event so I’m not sure they can pull it off legitimately but I think they will try. Dale also admitted that if he needs to pull the event down because it’s too controversial that he will.

View user's profile Send private message
user124

Since 02 Aug 2012
258 Posts
Portland
Obsessed



PostWed Jul 25, 18 6:19 pm     Reply with quote

I'm not trying to kick the hornets nest and will gladly defer to those locals that have put in the time to go to the meetings at Lyle etc. But what do the fisher-people have to do with Lyle sandbar access? Obviously they don't like kites scaring off the fish and interfering with their solitude, but isn't the river, including the Klickitat mouth, a public waterway? Legal pedestrian access to the sandbar definitely depends on cooperation with WSDOT and the BNSF, but how is the fishing community connected to these organizations?

And if SAK is able to put on a legal event that attracts money, crowds and attention to Lyle isn't that a win Lyle and kiters? Obviously appropriate safety, crowd control and avoidance of trains etc are a necessary prerequisite, but if this can be successfully accomplished (which may be challenging) it seems like a great way to showcase the positive aspects of the kite community.

View user's profile Send private message
Nevo

Since 01 Aug 2014
74 Posts

 



PostWed Jul 25, 18 6:47 pm     Reply with quote

This has been discussed in length already on other threads.

Long story short what’s a “legal” event doesn’t matter if it’s done without tact. As it’s been said repeatedly, access is not legal on foot to Lyle right now. The people who are able to look the other way on that can stop at any moment.

So, who has a better relationship with the rail? Kiters or fishers? Kiters who cross their tracks every day and hold events that pose a hazard to the tracks from the user and spectators? Or the fishermen who launch from a ramp and then cruise around in the water?

There are many variables at play and as we may think our cause is #1 to push for what we want, there are many other user groups who are far more organized and well funded to go to battle for their interests if we cause trouble.

user124 wrote:
I'm not trying to kick the hornets nest and will gladly defer to those locals that have put in the time to go to the meetings at Lyle etc. But what do the fisher-people have to do with Lyle sandbar access? Obviously they don't like kites scaring off the fish and interfering with their solitude, but isn't the river, including the Klickitat mouth, a public waterway? Legal pedestrian access to the sandbar definitely depends on cooperation with WSDOT and the BNSF, but how is the fishing community connected to these organizations?

And if SAK is able to put on a legal event that attracts money, crowds and attention to Lyle isn't that a win Lyle and kiters? Obviously appropriate safety, crowd control and avoidance of trains etc are a necessary prerequisite, but if this can be successfully accomplished (which may be challenging) it seems like a great way to showcase the positive aspects of the kite community.

View user's profile Send private message
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Northwest Kiteboarding -> Gorge / Portland / Oregon Coast All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1, 2, 3  Next
Page 1 of 3

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You can attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum