a kite is a kite (C or Bridled)

wakeup · Since 11 Sep 2005 328 Posts always Obsessed

hey guys
a kite is a kite
they all pull and that is what you want
while a c kite might be better for wake, you can still do any of it on a bridled kite. look at dre

trying handle passes?
who cares if it powers or depowers, we just want pull and a quick relaunch
the kite is at full power when you unhook anyway

i ride a 38cm pulley bar, period (a real pulley bar, not a chicken pulley)
i also had the chance to ride some new bridled kites on my bar.
some work and some don't, but i never had a problem unhooking or trying tricks

with the amount of range of the new kites, a lot of people go with the larger size so they are not underpowered. then they go to unhook and they are so lit they can do nothing but go downwind

and if you are a wanna be wakerider like me here are a few tips

1) proper kite selection (too much power is for donkeys, a definite style killer)

2) safety--- a good leash and plenty of room, you'll be surprised how far downwind you go on a kite low powered trick

3)fins you can't do surface passes with 2" fins, try 1 1/2" or smaller

4)COMMIT--let your balls hang low and get er done, walk through your next trick in your mind. see it , then try it. (don't be a puss, you are crashing in water)

oh yeah one more thing
kiteloops a fun and cool, but they are definitly not wake style, it is more of a stunt or trick specific to kiting
i have never been behind a boat that loops throough the air and then gives you a yank(a boat is always pulling, low, straight and strong)
besides if you are doing it right (kite low, a lot of speed, with good power) you don't need a kiteloop to do to assist you

Wind Slither · Since 04 Mar 2005 2575 Posts The 503 METAL

Sound advice and well said..

You heard the man...whatever you're working on, SACK UP and GET'ER DONE!

Very Happy

Hein · Since 08 Mar 2005 1313 Posts Possessed

My comment in the other thread
was a low blow.

I'm sorry Joby and Tekko.

Anyone who is wanting to ride
wake style should print out Joby's
words and read them over and
over.

-Hein

P.S. Let's get started on the slider

forrest · Tue May 01, 07 10:33 pm

Now you're talking!

tekko · Since 20 Feb 2006 376 Posts White Salmon Liquid Force

Hein.. Missed your 'Low Blow' comment. Which thread was it in?
Whatever... you're all right in my book.

Just for the record. I am riding bridled kites- Liquid Force Havocs. Besides some lofty boosting and my personal mission to resurect the 'Deadman'... I throw about everything unhooked, wake style.

While riding both the chicken loop and bridled kites are new for me as of moving to the Gorge... I still believe I am throwin down the same ol shit as on my fixed pully bar and C- kites.

So I agree... a kite is a kite... as long as it's a good kite.. and there are many good kites and only a few not so good kites around these days.

As for hucking wake style... I would like to redirect the conversation to boards and 'swing weight' over kites.. since they all pull.

Many many riders come up and check out my LF boards. Usually they pick it up and are like 'wow! that thing is heavy' then they go into the blah blah blah about light boards and how they could never ride it.

Let me take us back a few years to lessons already learned. About 5 years ago, wakeboards got lighter and lighter until one day they all realized that too light, reduces swing weight too much.. so the boards went back to a slightly heavier norm.

Swing weight is the weight that your board has at the end of you feet. Think of a pendulum swinging. The more weight, the more the pendulum will swing, if the initial push is the same. Your board works the same way. If you pop off the water into a move, your board carries swing weight momentum. This momentum actually pulls your legs up during the move.

Ever wonder why some of the most 'wake' style shots you see.. the ones where the board is well over the riders head in a raley or S-bend are on heavier boards in bindings? It is because the swing weight of the board gives it more momentum, therefor a higher apex to it's swing arc.

I am not saying this is for everyone and I am not saying everyone should ride wake.. but if you are trying to ride wake and want to be laid out.. try a heavier board with bindings and see what a little swing weight does for you.

Hein · Since 08 Mar 2005 1313 Posts Possessed

You are probably right about swing weight behind
a 500 HP merc. (Did you know that I worked on the
plant layout and big and small block sterndrive
assembly lines at the MerCruiser plant in Stillwater?)

Problem is: kiteboarding is pretty reliant of efficiency.
So a heavy board means a bigger kite and then
unhooking becomes a strain. In marginal conditions
a light weight setup will have you smiling and
staying upwind ready to bear off and throw down
when a gust comes through. A heavy board with
a big kite will want to drag you downwind unless
you are lit. You'll be using the gusts to get upwind
instead of throwing down. A light efficient board
will let you get upwind when it's light, wait for
a gust and the make a run downwind and do
your tricks.

My advice is go with a lighter board and learn some
techniques specific the wakestyle behind a kite and
not a boat. It is not the same. Your raleys might never
be as rad as Joby's but you'll be riding and ripping at
higher speed in lighter winds. And speed according to
Newton is also component of momentum, p:

p=mv m=mass, v=velocity

I'm currently riding a 133x41 FlipTip that weighs
4.5 lbs. It works great for wake style in marginal
conditions. When it gets windy I switch to a 133x39
with a regular layup so just a little heavier. But I
plan to make a carbon 39 as well because of the
faster reflex (spring back) rate.

Spring back can contribute a great deal to pop
and extension but you need to know how to take
advantage of it. Production cores and plastic
top and bottom sheets dampen the spring rate
so it won't respond fast enough for you to utilize
it. You'll load and flex the board but it won't return
untill after you've left the water. You want a board
that kicks you out of the water. The speed of that
kick will contribute to the momentum in much the
same way weight does and allow you to get the board
up high. And the reduced inertia wil let your get
the board back down so you can stick the landing.

My boards are light and I think they have better
performance because of it. You can add bindings
and that will add quite a bit of weight and give that
a go when it's windy. But on the marginal day you
can go with straps and benefit from the added low
end you'll get from a lighter board. And if you
want to do some boosting then the lack of weight
will have you skying higher.

Sorry to disagree, Tekko.

-Hein

Onad · Wed May 02, 07 2:49 pm

Great technical discussion you guys! I can see the pros and cons of both sides. This is the kind of stuff I really enjoy seeing on the forums. ~D

gabe · Since 16 May 2005 475 Posts Obsessed

regarding light wind efficiency, does an extra 3lbs on a board actually have any greater effect than 3lbs of extra body weight, or wetsuit, or harness, etc? my sense says no.

nice for maneuverabilty and all that, but isn't it just one (equally "weighted") component to the overall system's weight?

BigR · Since 05 Jul 2005 372 Posts White Salmon Obsessed

I would say the heavier the rider the less effect the actual board weight has.

It will be a much greater isue for you lighter riders

My board is HEAVY! But it has a very good progressive shape

I think rocker, shape , size and outline will figure more significantly

Hein · Since 08 Mar 2005 1313 Posts Possessed

In auto racing they call it unsprung weight.
ie the weight of the tires/wheels, spindles. etc.
Anything that is not supported by the suspension.

In kiteboarding it would the board and your feet.
Your legs are the springs and shocks.

That's why they use alloy wheels and carbon fiber
suspension components. to reduce the inertia of
these components so they can accelerate faster.

It makes the car stay on the track better because
the reduced inertia of the suspension allows the
tires to follow undulations in the road surface
while the chassis stays at the desired ride height.

Kind of what you do when you ride through chop.

If you are into racing or just want to see some
really good practical engineering supported by
a throrough understading of physical laws, diligent
analysis and technical calculation then you'll want
to read:

Engineer to Win by Smokey Unik.

Should be required reading for all MEs

tekko · Since 20 Feb 2006 376 Posts White Salmon Liquid Force

Hein. Thanks for your insight. It is always valuable and appreciated.

Just for the record... I have never been behind a legit wake boat. All of my personal wakestyle riding comes from learning to kite in an era where 2 line Wipi's and wakebindings were the norm.

Back then, going up wind was indeed a pain in the ass and difficult, due to the inefficiency of the set up... but it rocked for learning wake tricks.

As for your points about effeciency in the set up... I don't disagree at all. When you are 230lbs you know all about drag, weight and other inefficiency's in the gear.

Last summer, as you will probably recall, I rode a carbon cabal skim with my skate shoes on most of the summer. Talk about efficient! No fins-no drag, low rocker, wide.... easy to get upwind and ride small kites.

My comments are not to try and convince anyone of anything.. I am just sharing my experiences and how I ride.. and some of the things I have learned in my years riding.

Personally, I can tell the difference in swing weight, on the same board, on the same day, if I am riding it with bindings or straps. That's just something I have noticed. Maybe I am full of shit and it is just the bindings.. either way, I have found what works for me. Maybe it is only relative to big guys?

I agree that yes, big guy on big/heavy board = big kite to get upwind. Luckily we have 4line bridled kites and chicken loops now... makes it real easy.

The great thing about kiting is that it is developing into so many different styles of riding and specific gear for those styles. I think most everyone would agree that now, you really should have at least 2 if not 3,4,5,6...+ boards in your quiver. Everyone should have their standard twin, but also a surfboard, wakeboard with boots, skim or other light wind board... so that on any given day, you have the right toys to play in whatever conditions you are given.

Hein, I am glad we disagree. If everyone had the same beliefs about how boards should work, boardsports in general would never evolve... and we would all be riding the walmart kiteboard. I have never really agreed with Doyle on boards either, but I love riding with him and learning from his insights and experience. Just like I am stoked to see you take off on your pully bar, racing downwind unhooked, unstrapped.. even though I have moved past that part of my life and finally learned to use a chicken loop.

Differences in design ideas keep the sport evolving and fun. The great thing about boards is that there will always be shapers shaping and trying out new shapes. That will always create lust in board riders.. to have and ride more boards.

Still stoked to catch a ride on your swell pig this summer and if you've got anything 140cm+ that we can mount boots to, I'd love to give it a go as well. Never had the chance to ride one of your boards because everyone who has them seems to be about 80-100lbs smaller than I am.

gabe · Since 16 May 2005 475 Posts Obsessed

hein, i definitely see the point about chop, but that doesn't apply in really light wind or a shelted spot. it seems unfair to compare a board to tires and wheels of a car, because they spin so weight has a much bigger effect there than on the body.

not clear to me that adding 5lbs to a board vs a person's body really would affect light wind abilities in flat water.

it's a theoretical point though because a lighter board will generally just feel better all around.