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Miami Beach Ban
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shred_da_gorge

Since 12 Nov 2008
760 Posts

Opinionated



PostSat Dec 30, 17 11:13 am     Reply with quote

I haven't been there in a while, and the beach was uncrowded (empty) when I was. I didn't have gear but launched and landed several kiters and the locals seemed cool (OK, cute girls, so maybe I was blind to any 'cold' culture...).

What I noticed was that rules weren't posted back then, though maybe that's changed. Having active stakeholders and local forums is key. Posting the rules on signs gives people 'teeth' to self-police, otherwise it just sounds like bitching.

I've 'policed' errant kiters here, and always done so with the polite assumption they don't know the rules (although some think they are above them, like the guy standing on the ES windsurfing beach with his kite at 12 "talking to my videographer" - dude, just because the wind wasn't blowing enough for windsurfing doesn't mean the rules changed).

But I digress. One thing Miami has against it which we don't is hurricanes. What I mean is wind conditions that many of us would feel quite comfortable in while the news vans show up to film and post stories that garner lots of 'Darwinism' comments. Anyone remember this incident (I believe from Miami)?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UCQFJg4JaQ

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Matt V

Since 26 Oct 2014
337 Posts
Summer- OR Coast, Winter - My van near good snow
Explosive Diarrhea



PostTue Jan 02, 18 9:18 am    Re: Miami dangerous Reply with quote

SalmonSlayer wrote:
If they can't keep their own house clean, they deserve the ban.


I did not read where anyone said they were for a kiteboarding ban.


Seems pretty similar to "I don't want this person to go to jail, but, they deserve to go to jail". I am not calling this mental gymnastics, but it does come close.


The big problem here is that precedent may be somewhat misunderstood on this forum. You can look up the definition yourself, but it works out this way.

Port or city officials who DO NOT kite, one day feel that they want to ban kiteboarding at a popular spot. If this activity has not been banned at similar spots before, they have to make the case of why this place is special and the situation warrants a ban. If this activity has been successfully banned at a similar spot, it makes their job much easier since proof of a ban being warranted already exists and you can show proof has been readily accepted.

If precedent is set, and becomes more common across the nation, your launch will one day face a similar ban. And one day, that ban will be sucessfully put in place. So when you say Miami kiters DESERVE this ban, you will eventually be DESERVING IT YOURSELF at your local launch.

Now lets talk about what a ban means. Again, you can look that up, but it works out this way.

When the beach is crowded, there are no kiters allowed. When the beach is only seeing moderate use with some room for kiters, there are no kiters allowed. When the beach is deserted and kiters are the only ones on the beach, there are no kiters allowed. So that's it. One day, you too will be down at the beach you used to kite at and see no one around because it is too windy and over cast for people to enjoy the beach. But you could enjoy the beach for kiting, though you can't because there is a ban on kiting in effect.

A ban is not the answer here, nor have I ever seen a total ban on an activity being justified by either the few, or the many.

And as the population of the Portland area grows, so to will it's average mentality change into that of all ultra-densely populated areas like Florida. The kiters of Florida attitude is likely in-line with the general population of Florida. This means that the beach goers may not have any better disposition than the kiters there. A few good, and the rest may well fall in line with the observations of previous posters here. Florida may be no "mirror" of the Gorge/Oregon Coast, but it is a window into the future for NW kiters.

Thanks to those who understand this and signed the petition to stop an outright ban on Miami Beach. You actually just signed a petition to save your own local kite spot, wherever that may be.

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SalmonSlayer

Since 27 Nov 2005
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PostTue Jan 02, 18 9:40 am    Re: Miami dangerous Reply with quote

Matt V wrote:

Seems pretty similar to "I don't want this person to go to jail, but, they deserve to go to jail". I am not calling this mental gymnastics, but it does come close.


The big problem here is that precedent may be somewhat misunderstood on this forum. You can look up the definition yourself, but it works out this way.

I think you are missing the point that a few posters including myself have raised here. I assume people understand the definition of precedent. In fact, I acknowledged that a precedent will be set here.
SalmonSlayer wrote:

If poor practices around other beach users continues, when does your anger toggle from those (see your post) pointing out FL kiteboarders actions, to the bad actors in FL? It is very possible that these FL kiteboarders behavior is the problem and not the local govt or posters pointing out the possible reality. It is very possible that FL kiteboarders will be directly responsible for planting the seeds of kiteboarding bans that will spread to other regions.


What if the ban is driven by poor kiting behavior? When do you stop blaming everyone else except the kiters for a ban that you see as threatening your personal kiting opportunities?

Other posters here are just bringing up the possibility this proposed ban may be driven by repeated poor kiteboarder beach etiquette. If that is the case then the precedent has been created because of kiteboarders. Not government, other beach users, bird watchers, extreme environmentalist.....

Last edited by SalmonSlayer on Tue Jan 02, 18 1:42 pm; edited 1 time in total

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bigjohn

Since 13 Mar 2012
372 Posts

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PostTue Jan 02, 18 11:46 am    Re: Miami dangerous Reply with quote

Matt V wrote:


And as the population of the Portland area grows, so to will it's average mentality change into that of all ultra-densely populated areas like Florida. The kiters of Florida attitude is likely in-line with the general population of Florida. This means that the beach goers may not have any better disposition than the kiters there. A few good, and the rest may well fall in line with the observations of previous posters here. Florida may be no "mirror" of the Gorge/Oregon Coast, but it is a window into the future for NW kiters.


Matt, I appreciate that you are making an effort to help kitesurfing access in Miami (which you feel is a strong precursor towards future access locally) but I have to disagree with you on this one.

For starters I am sure there are many many considerate kiters in Miami who really just want to do the right thing. But, as a kiting community, collectively I don't think they have made a strong effort to place pressure on the few bad eggs.

And... bad behavior breeds more bad behavior.

As a kiting community we have to make an effort to call out those behaving badly. Many do not even know they have done something that might put our access at risk. There are probably a few that don't care.

Collectively this understanding will spread; both to the old timers with bad behavior tendencies as well as the new kiters just joining the arena.

I make this strong statement about the Miami kiting community because in the statement we signed in support of their cause they made no mention of self policing. Instead they are simply asking that the commissioners adopt 3 new rules.

Who is going to police these rules?

Accepting ownership for a portion of the solution can go a long ways towards solving a problem.

I am proud of the strong position that many local kiters take (both online as well as on the beach) towards bringing awareness of bad behavior. Ultimately I believe it is these individuals that will save our access locally.

Perhaps some kiters in Miami will take notice.

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Matt V

Since 26 Oct 2014
337 Posts
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PostWed Jan 03, 18 9:36 am    Re: Miami dangerous Reply with quote

SalmonSlayer wrote:
when does your anger toggle from those (see your post) pointing out FL kiteboarders actions, to the bad actors in FL?

What if the ban is driven by poor kiting behavior? When do you stop blaming everyone else except the kiters for a ban that you see as threatening your personal kiting opportunities?

Other posters here are just bringing up the possibility this proposed ban may be driven by repeated poor kiteboarder beach etiquette. If that is the case then the precedent has been created because of kiteboarders. Not government, other beach users, bird watchers, extreme environmentalist.....


Back to "precedent"!

But first off, A BAN IS NEVER JUSTIFIED as all beaches have some time for use without conflict. Should you be able to find a beach with "365days a year - crowded from dawn till dusk", I am sure you could find a section to make available for wind sports use at least 1 day a week.

The real danger in blaming kiters has to do with politics and the way politics/public relations/media is used to create overwhelming support for an unjust ban against a minority user group.

Lets say Miami Beach has a reported incidence of 1 per year lacerated innocent beach goer. If precedent is set for a ban by this statistic, it can be used to eventually justify a ban on a beach with a reported incidence of 1 per 2 years, then 1 per 5 years, then 1 per 20 years, then 1 per 30 years...............I know what you are thinking at this!

"That is not even a real statistic as kiteboarding has not existed for 30 years, not to mention the number of people on Miami Beach compared to other beaches!!!"

To kiteboarders, the above rebuttal makes sense and we seem to have caught someone making an untrue statistical evaluation. However, to the general public and the special interest/politicians, they see it as:

"Wow, you guys are really dangerous. You have not even been around that long and you already are injuring people. And you are doing it at beaches with much fewer beach goers than Miami Beach! We really need to ban this here too."

So from a different point of view, the true (but misrepresented) statistic seems to prove the opposite of what you feel it does. And it does this to the MAJORITY of those responsible for making the rules. The small minority of kiteboarders will not have enough clout to sway public opinion back to reality.

Now add a little sprinkle of precedent in with the PR campain against kiteboarding!

"We have to ban kiteboarding at BeachX because they did it at Miami Beach after years of increasing numbers of innocent beach goers being hurt. As more and more kiteboarders come to BeachX, we will see more injuries. We must work to prevent these injuries by banning the offending activity. If we do nothing, the blood of innocent beach goers will be on our hands."

Overly dramatic, or the reality of political/special interest when given the unstoppable tool of precedent?

This is why it is in the best interest of every outdoor enthusiast who engages in activities that require commitment, skill, and are inherently dangerous to some degree - to oppose this ban. There are those with real power, and the potential for overwhelming public support, who do not participate in our particular activity, and who also wish to stop us from having access to our sport in an increasing number of public spaces.

If you give the politicians/special interest groups a weapon to use against us as a minority group, do you think they will not use it??? This is why you should oppose this ban, regardless of whether or not you are happy with your experiences in Florida. AND PLEASE!!! try try to stop giving ammo to the opposition. If you feel that your interests are unjust, then join the other side.

On a side note, I guess these Florida kiters could just move to Hood River if Miami Beach gets banned. SalmonSlayer, 'when does your anger toggle from those' ex-Florida kiters tangling with you at the event site, to anger at yourself for being an instrument of their of arrival at Hood River. Shocked

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SalmonSlayer

Since 27 Nov 2005
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PostWed Jan 03, 18 10:03 am    Re: Miami dangerous Reply with quote

Matt V wrote:

But first off, A BAN IS NEVER JUSTIFIED :


You lost me there. Good luck

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Matt V

Since 26 Oct 2014
337 Posts
Summer- OR Coast, Winter - My van near good snow
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PostWed Jan 03, 18 3:25 pm     Reply with quote

I understand.
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user124

Since 02 Aug 2012
260 Posts
Portland
Obsessed



PostWed Jan 03, 18 3:41 pm     Reply with quote

Matt V wrote:
I understand.


A 2 word reply? No exhausting 3 page rant that no one will bother to read? No ALL CAPS?!?

I'm pretty sure someone hacked Matt V's account.

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Sasquatch

Since 09 Mar 2005
1633 Posts
P-town
STACKED



PostWed Jan 03, 18 3:57 pm     Reply with quote

user124 wrote:
Matt V wrote:
I understand.


A 2 word reply? No exhausting 3 page rant that no one will bother to read? No ALL CAPS?!?

I'm pretty sure someone hacked Matt V's account.


I doubt someone hacked his acct. Sometimes one can't reply at length because they are out snowkiting.

Or because they have Explosive Diarrhea which is unpredictable and different volumes come out at different times; it usually is a lot, but sometimes it is just a little.

I think it was the latter.

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Matt V

Since 26 Oct 2014
337 Posts
Summer- OR Coast, Winter - My van near good snow
Explosive Diarrhea



PostWed Jan 03, 18 4:08 pm     Reply with quote

Dang! But thanks for lightening the mood.

And yes just got done for the 10th session back in the Midwest on frickin 2 inches of snow. I'd almost rather mistime an overhead incoming wave on my way out on the Oregon coast than put up with these bad landings.

And Sasquatch, my last bout with ED was a few nights ago - so no short notes because of that.

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1surfer

Since 20 Apr 2010
317 Posts
Breckenridge / Hawaii
Obsessed



PostWed Jan 03, 18 6:17 pm    Re: Miami dangerous Reply with quote

SalmonSlayer wrote:
Matt V wrote:

But first off, A BAN IS NEVER JUSTIFIED :


You lost me there. Good luck


Right same here. I will flat out say it. Mat V, you are wrong.

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1surfer

Since 20 Apr 2010
317 Posts
Breckenridge / Hawaii
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PostWed Jan 03, 18 6:19 pm    Re: Miami dangerous Reply with quote

[quote="1surfer"]
SalmonSlayer wrote:
Matt V wrote:

But first off, A BAN IS NEVER JUSTIFIED :


You lost me there. Good luck


Right same here. I will flat out say it. Mat V, you are wrong .Maybe just that sentence but there are times and places that Ban's are very much justified. Period.

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Matt V

Since 26 Oct 2014
337 Posts
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PostWed Jan 03, 18 6:59 pm    Re: Miami dangerous Reply with quote

1surfer wrote:
....but there are times and places that Ban's are very much justified. Period.


A ban is for all times at a particular location. That is my problem with them in general. You can make the case for regulation at all locations, but a ban is absolute and encompasses all times - including times when kiteboarding could take place with very little risk compared to other times. That is the core reasoning why a ban (totally banning an activity at a particular location) is never justified.

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1surfer

Since 20 Apr 2010
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Breckenridge / Hawaii
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PostWed Jan 03, 18 7:38 pm    Re: Miami dangerous Reply with quote

Matt V wrote:
1surfer wrote:
....but there are times and places that Ban's are very much justified. Period.


A ban is for all times at a particular location. That is my problem with them in general. You can make the case for regulation at all locations, but a ban is absolute and encompasses all times - including times when kiteboarding could take place with very little risk compared to other times. That is the core reasoning why a ban (totally banning an activity at a particular location) is never justified.


Waikiki is a good example. Windsurfing and kiting is banned there and rightfully so. You can sail there during a Kona wind but you can never launch from Waikiki beach. There is never a good time to launch kite or windsurfer there because it as a popular tourist beach and there are plenty of other places to do those sports. As such, that ban is justified in my eyes. Hanauma bay, windsurfing and kiting banned, rightfully so. Kalaupapa, all aquatic activities banned by non residents, rightfully so.

In Maimai they kite on the south east end of the Rickenbacker causeway on a south wind. It is so narrow that when you launch your kite there the kite is actually flying over moving cars. That endangers innocent motorists that have no choice but to drive under peoples kites. Thats too dangerous and kiting should be banned a that spot. Its way to dangerous for the kiters and drivers who have no choice but to drive under flying kites are in danger, not to mention that if a kite goes down on a moving car for ANY reason it won't be good for the kiter. Yes that has happened. There are plenty of other places to kite nearby. A kite ban a that spot would be justified.

There are other areas in the main part of Maimi and Lauderdale that are always very crowded and a ban might be necessary to protect the non kiting beach goers that far outnumber the amount of kiters. Jet skis are banned from going too close to the shore in those spots and that is a justified ban as well. There are many many places to kite near those spots so it should not actually effect the sport of kiting in that area.

Snowkiting is banned at operating ski areas. Prolly a great idea.

SUP is banned at Rock Point. Great idea.

Cameras are banned at Haka Ano surf spot. Great idea and a very justified ban. If you get caught with a camera there you will be banned from surfing there forever. Great idea.

Smoking is banned in restaurants and bars and Im glad.

All I am saying is that some bans are necessary and just.

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Matt V

Since 26 Oct 2014
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PostThu Jan 04, 18 10:49 am    Re: Miami dangerous Reply with quote

Most of your examples are not bans. Kiting is not banned if you can kite there from some other launch at least some time. The argument that you need to launch everywhere to kite everywhere is a "strawman". On top of that, most locations you can kite to will not be your primary focus when kiting. HANAUMA BAY???? - did anyone ever really try to kite there. If you look it up on Google Earth and do a 3D pesspective view, it looks like a place to study rotor. Can you tell me how good the wind is there????

And,

1surfer wrote:
Snowkiting is banned at operating ski areas. Prolly a great idea.


Just so no one thinks that 1surfer is talking about kiting up a 50yd wide lane between 60ft tall pine trees - kiting has been allowed by some ski resorts above the tree line (where you could actually kite). Given this is mostly advanced terrain, it sees fewer beginners and has wide open spaces. Some of the kiteable terrain is not accessible by lift runs. You either skin in, or you kite there. Banning kiting in these areas is not something that is needed, but rather a decision resulting from the corporate mentality of the ski resort. It was actually once allowed at many ski resorts, but has been eliminated at more and more of them recently. The reasoning behind these bans is mostly because of liability (avalanche management), sometimes due to the ski resorts losing money to kiters just using one trip lift tickets.


1surfer wrote:
In Maimai they kite on the south east end of the Rickenbacker causeway on a south wind. It is so narrow that when you launch your kite there the kite is actually flying over moving cars.


I am for a ban on launching your kite in between buildings in downtown Chicago. There, now you can call me a hypocrite. I would also be in favor of a kiteboarding ban on the moon. So now that I have "strawmanned" you, lets get to the point of this conversation. 6 city commissioners and the mayor of Miami beach are deciding on a potental 7.5mile length of beach ban at a wide beach. No where in this area are the kiters flying their kites over cars at a narrow launch here. This is a good, wide beach, extremely conducive to kiteboarding. The main argument for banning kiteboarding is conflict with beach goers. Try re-reading my previous posts for the explanation of why this affects, or one day will affect YOU specifically, 1surfer. I am positive you launch at some "narrow" beaches too.


1surfer wrote:
Smoking is banned in restaurants and bars and Im glad.


Guess you got me on this one. That changes my whole perspective..........Come on 1surfer, this is about an outdoor activity. Are you really saying smoking is an outdoor activity comparable to kiteboarding, windsurfing, surfing, kayaking, or fishing? If you would have put this argument first on your list, I could have labeled it "poisoning the well".

Bring it back to the fact that this ban is precedent for YOUR beach. Support your fellow kitesurfers.

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1surfer

Since 20 Apr 2010
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Breckenridge / Hawaii
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PostThu Jan 04, 18 11:33 am    Ban Reply with quote

I was just trying to illustrate that there are bans that are just. At least I feel that there are.

I do think that kiting on the south side of the east end of the Rickenbacker should be banned. Definitely. Prolly not 7.5 miles of beach.

I will say that in the case of Miami and Lauderdale, they made their own bed. I do not really feel sorry for them. Still not saying that I support that ban but when kiters behave like they have, this is what it comes down to.

Myself and my family do launch on some serious narrow non beaches, however we put a ton of effort into being considerate of non kiters and put an overwhelming emphasis into being safe and a good example. We have even been known to sit patiently and wait until sunbathers or swimmers leave so that we don't endanger them, make them uncomfortable or put them in a situation where they may go and say some negative things about kiters. This is a proactive effort made by us on behalf of all kiters. That is what it takes to preserve our access to desired launches.

As seen anywhere that there are kiters, a few bad apples can spoil the bunch. Thats where it is up to the safety minded considerate ones to police the kooks with enough forethought to preserve continued and uninterrupted access. In Maimi and Lauderdale they have not done that. Its bad there, really bad.

The only place that is crazier than that where I have been is Cabarete but somehow they have reached a sort of weird yet quasi dangerous equilibrium. It may work in Cabarete because they have a higher percentage of very skilled kiters. That is not the case in Miami.

I don't mean to be a hypocrite but I don't do that police the kooks thing either unless it directly effects myself or my family at that moment. I go the the "lost" beaches to stay away from the dangerous ones. Cant stand the kooks. Evolution will take care of them.

I am not pro ban by any means. I just believe there are situations where it is warranted. I have personal experience in Miami and Lauderdale and will say, they may have blown it for themselves. Maybe they need to be the sacrificial lamb as an example to prevent the same situation elsewhere. Miami would be a good place for that, because it's Miami ... Very Happy

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Matt V

Since 26 Oct 2014
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PostThu Jan 04, 18 3:32 pm     Reply with quote

Hopefully, they will not develop a taste for lamb.
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