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CGKA - Maintaining good relations at Lyle
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SalmonSlayer

Since 27 Nov 2005
601 Posts

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CGKA Member


PostTue Sep 19, 17 8:00 am     Reply with quote

Matt V wrote:

1. Fish schooling behavior in deep water is much different than shallow.
2. Overhead predators are not as much of a concern to fish in this situation.
3. Does the hum of an engine up your anxiety as much as a backfire?
4. Basic animal behavioral evolution/adaptation clearly illustrates that regular occurrences are much more likely to be ignored than rare occurrences - something out of place sounds the alarm - not something normally encountered.


1. The location of the pic is shallow water like the mouth of the Klickitat. It is hard to see but the boats in the picture the furthest away are scraping bottom at about 36 inches. You can see a mud flat a bit further away. The boats in the foreground are in about 6 feet. The nets are dragging on the bottom.
2. See #1. In addition, if fish salmon are conditioned to avoid shadows from predators and kites spook them, it is odd that they still seem willing to swim in the shadow of multiple bridges and a fish ladder, including the Klickitat bridge.
3. These boats are not humming a hypnotic tune. They are making all kinds of noise rev'ing their engines and beating on their transmissions. Forward, reverse, forward, reverse.... It is a bunch of 200-500 HP engines creating variable noise.
4. Columbia river fish have way more exposure man made noise and man made obstacles while running up the Columbia with boat traffic and a huge fish ladder, yet they are not swimming away . The fish in the pic have been in the Gulf of Alaska and the Bering Sea and are not likely to have 1/10 of the exposure to man made variables that Columbia salmon experience by the time they get to the Klickitat river mouth.

Matt V wrote:
Ever fly fished and spooked a fish because you were too close and then tried to catch it? I have some experience fishing a wide range of species and I can guarantee you that a spooked fish is near impossible to get interested in almost any lure.


This is a more valid argument for other fish that mill around rather than a fish that is swimming to breed once at all costs. I have not fly fished and dont really understand catching one at a time except for food. Catch and release seems cruel to me.

The real point regardless of kite boardings effect on fishing.
Other user groups have been using the Columbia for generations. I think these groups deserve a wide berth to continue their activities without feeling like there is an invasion in their space and a threat to their continued enjoyment of the Columbia river. It is not hard. Just draw an imaginary line in the exposed sand bar dividing it into an east and west half. Kite boarders should stay in the west half for setup and stay out of the river mouth when on the water. The only other issue is a plan to deal with those that refuse to abide by these rules.

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Matt V

Since 26 Oct 2014
347 Posts
Summer- OR Coast, Winter - My van near good snow
Explosive Diarrhea



PostWed Sep 20, 17 6:37 am     Reply with quote

SalmonSlayer wrote:

1. The location of the pic is shallow water like the mouth of the Klickitat. It is hard to see but the boats in the picture the furthest away are scraping bottom at about 36 inches. You can see a mud flat a bit further away. The boats in the foreground are in about 6 feet. The nets are dragging on the bottom.
2. See #1. In addition, if fish salmon are conditioned to avoid shadows from predators and kites spook them, it is odd that they still seem willing to swim in the shadow of multiple bridges and a fish ladder, including the Klickitat bridge.
3. These boats are not humming a hypnotic tune. They are making all kinds of noise rev'ing their engines and beating on their transmissions. Forward, reverse, forward, reverse.... It is a bunch of 200-500 HP engines creating variable noise.
4. Columbia river fish have way more exposure man made noise and man made obstacles while running up the Columbia with boat traffic and a huge fish ladder, yet they are not swimming away . The fish in the pic have been in the Gulf of Alaska and the Bering Sea and are not likely to have 1/10 of the exposure to man made variables that Columbia salmon experience by the time they get to the Klickitat river mouth.


1. Fish do not bite on gill nets. No one is saying they do. It is obvious they can be "spooked" into them. That is most likely what you are seeing in the pic you posted from Alaska or somewhere else.
2. Nothing stops a salmon from making the run upstream. I never said it did. And anyone making that claim is denying mountains of evidence against that. All evidence shows that an upstream run will end in successfully reaching the goal, or the salmon dies trying. No boat, kiteboarder, "bridge shadow" (where did you get that one?), or bear fishing in the stream will prevent a salmon from making it upstream unless they are killed by that particular thing.

The above is not an issue. If it becomes one, science would show that we are right in saying that kiteboarding has no impact on upstream migration of salmon.

The bellow is the real issue of contention in the kiteboarding community.

The issue is whether there is an impact on lure fishermen's success with kites overhead. The key difference between a kite and an bridge is that the kite is moving, and the bridge is stationary. You can easily prove through behavioral analysis that a moving overhead object is orders of magnitude more alarming to fish than a stationary one. Birds of prey have absolutely impacted the behavioral evolution of fish across nearly all species who even temporarily occupy the surface layers of the waters in which they live.

This is the argument, which some of us want not to be true. It is an argument we will lose. Pick your battles.

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SalmonSlayer

Since 27 Nov 2005
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PostTue Jul 24, 18 8:05 pm     Reply with quote

https://sakitesurfadventures.com/events/

Speed contest looks like fun

"
The Klickitat Speed Run - 11th August 2018

Sign up here. All are welcome to enter!

This event is open to everyone who can kiteboard on either a twintip or a surf directional board. Contestants don't have to be pro kiteboarders to enter, just kiteboarders with a good attitude looking to have a little fun clocking their personal best speed.

The event will be held in Lyle at the SAK shop and on the deck of the Memaloose wine tasting room as the contestants battle it out on the Klickitat River. The number of heats will depend on the number of contestants entering this year. So bring your fastest twintip or surf directional board and the kite you think will get the job done and lets clock some serious speeds.

Visit https://sakitesurfadventures.com/events to register

If you have any questions please contact Dale at sakitesurf@gmail.com or call 971 295 7337."

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cgka

Since 18 Jul 2006
274 Posts

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PostWed Jul 25, 18 8:25 am     Reply with quote

http://www.nwkite.com/forums/t-44367.html

I know this is a mouthful of reading, so sorry, but it is not easy to explain in just one sentence.

In the early 90's the Klickitat Sandbar was the premiere North American Speedsailing location for windsurfers, with the North American records being set and broken regularly.
Although world renowned as a speed spot, there were typically no more than 10-20 sailors on a busy day.
https://www.americanwindsurfer.com/articles/need-for-speed/
However, this all ended when a combination of efforts between the fishing community (who were concerned with the effects on the fishing habitat) and the River Keepers environmental organization (who were concerned about the bird habitat in the area scared off by the sails).
End of an era.

Some basic legal facts for this launch still stand (but have not really been enforced in a couple of years, due to low key self regulation by the local community - aka Fight Club rules)
1) It is still illegal to park on the south side of the road, and it is especially illegal to park anywhere near the emergency access road.
2) It is still illegal to cross the highway. Yes, it is a highway, with a 50(?)mph speed limit. Cars do not expect to see pedestrians wandering across a 50mph section of road.
*In order to get a crosswalk installed, the speedlimit would have to be changed to 35 or 40mph by WSDOT (could be possible. John Mooney from CGKA negotiated the speed limit to be reduced at White Salmon for safety reasons)
3) And finally, it is still a Felony Crime to be caught crossing Railroad tracks illegally anywhere in the USA. A felony crime is with a $1000-2000 fine and is a permanent mark on your criminal record.

For a couple of years the CGKA (with support form the CGWA) negotiated with WSDOT and the railroad to gain legal crossing access to the sandbar.
The City of Lyle welcomed kiteboarding, but the city limit ends at the bridge, so they have no influence on the situation.
WSDOT was willing to discuss options.
The Railroad was even open to ideas (as they were just finishing negotiating a deal with the CGWA at Dougs Beach) but there was not enough (year round) dry land on the sandbar side for establishing a crossing (not to mention the $450k-1Mil estimated cost).
At about that same time, some locals began sharing experiences of being ticketed for J-walking across the highway and there were incidents of Felony charges being given to kiters caught crossing the tracks.
When discussed with the railroad representatives, they informed the CGKA that when their train engineers either have to reduce speed for pedestrians or see any persons too close to the tracks when the train is passing, they report these incidents to their regional office, who then, if they feel a concern, in turn dispatch officials to patrol those sections of tracks. We were also informed that the officials regularly follow our social media postings and communications on NW Kite, Kite Forum and Facebook so that they could keep a gauge on the actions in this area.
Their ultimate long term resolution for this spot is to install a 2mile long cyclone fence with barbwire on the top to prevent pedestrian issues.
Henceforth our establishment of the Fight Club Rules.

In closing, lessons to take away from this.
All (non boating) access to Lyle Sandbar is illegal.
Being on the sandbar is not illegal.
The local fishing community does not want you in the river mouth.
The City of Lyle wants you to visit them and buy your beer, wine or snacks from them.
How you do it, is up to you. If you invite newbies without first informing them of the legal/illegal aspect, you are elevating the chances of this location being put back on the radar with WSDOT and the railroad officials.

See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil.
Or
Fight Club Rules
1st RULE: You do not talk about FIGHT CLUB.
2nd RULE: You DO NOT talk about FIGHT CLUB.

Thank you
CGKA

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[b:13763ca0d3]The CGKA is your advocate for Kiteboarding in the Gorge! [i:13763ca0d3] Join now: [/i:13763ca0d3]GorgeKiter.com/join[/b:13763ca0d3]

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bigjohn

Since 13 Mar 2012
396 Posts

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PostWed Jul 25, 18 1:20 pm     Reply with quote

CGKA - Nice to hear the full history run down for this location.

It would be a tremendous loss to the local kiting community (as well as the local economy) if access to Lyle was completely lost. This is one of the few places in the Gorge that is beginer friendly.

Seems to me that event coordinators might want to consider relocation of this event. Are there other locations with similar conditions (however without the impact to the fish and railroad)?

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Bargeslayer

Since 08 Jul 2012
91 Posts

 



PostWed Jul 25, 18 4:55 pm     Reply with quote

cgka wrote:
http://www.nwkite.com/forums/t-44367.html

We were also informed that the officials regularly follow our social media postings and communications on NW Kite, Kite Forum and Facebook so that they could keep a gauge on the actions in this area.
Their ultimate long term resolution for this spot is to install a 2mile long cyclone fence with barbwire on the top to prevent pedestrian issues.
Henceforth our establishment of the Fight Club Rules.

See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil.
Or
Fight Club Rules
1st RULE: You do not talk about FIGHT CLUB.
2nd RULE: You DO NOT talk about FIGHT CLUB.

Thank you
CGKA


I guess I don't understand how a three page post about Lyle is adhering to these rules in any way. This spot seems to pop up (by name) on this forum on a near weekly basis at this point and if the railroads are indeed monitoring these forums it would seem that we are speeding the placement of a barbed wire fence across the so called access.

Secondly, why is the CGKA posting about creating a kite competition at this spot with no real legal access plan? Sure it is possible to take a boat to the sandbar but every time I have ridden this spot there is a steady stream of kiters going back and forth across the tracks between the parking lot and the spit. We all know that >90% of people at lyle are accessing it illegally by crossing the tracks. To promote or even suggest a kite competition at lyle without addressing the obvious legal issues surrounding access seems irresponsible at best and in the view of non kiters likely compromises the legitimacy of CGKA as an advocacy group for kiting in the gorge. I'm all for supporting access for all of us in the gorge but actions like this make me hesitant to spend money supporting CGKA.

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bigjohn

Since 13 Mar 2012
396 Posts

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PostWed Jul 25, 18 8:24 pm     Reply with quote

While I respect bargeslayer's opinion and feel he brings up good points I have yet an alternate perspective on this subject.

The world is not black and white.

I believe the following to be true:
1) Fish are affected by kites (and other activities) in the mouth of the Klickitat river
2) Trains are affected by people crossing the tracks in non-designated locations
3) Highways are affected by people walking across them in non-designated locations
4) Local communities benefit from tourism - this is a multipart statement
4a) tourists buy food and beer at local pubs
4b) tourists like area so much they end up buying houses and setting roots
4c) tourists end up starting new businesses that generate new jobs and industries in the local communities.
5) Kitesurfing at Lyle is a huge benefit for both local kiters as well as tourist kiters as it is one of the few (very few) beginner friendly locations.

There is not an easy solution that fully solves all the statements above. Therefore it makes sense that everyone should listen to the concerns of others and look for ways to compromise.

If compromise is not an option I think that we need to be prepared for the possibility kiters may end up on the bottom end of a negotiated deal.... We may also win and gain unfettered access... When you role the dice you have to be willing to accept the consequences.

I feel that CGKA has presented an excellent background in regards to the concerns / challenges we as a kiting community face in order to keep Lyle accessible. Perhaps if everybody makes an effort to reduce the concerns of other entities (like kiting in the mouth, creating safety issues for trains or vehicles) we can find a solution that allows all groups to jointly use this area.

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cgka

Since 18 Jul 2006
274 Posts

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PostWed Jul 25, 18 9:52 pm     Reply with quote

I think you may have meant to say SAKA (South Africa Kite Adventures) Kite School. They are the ones organizing the competition.

The CGKA (Columbia Gorge Kiteboarding Assoc) has no involvement in the running of any events at the Lyle Sandbar or Klickitat River Mouth.


Bargeslayer wrote:

Secondly, why is the CGKA posting about creating a kite competition at this spot with no real legal access plan? Sure it is possible to take a boat to the sandbar but every time I have ridden this spot there is a steady stream of kiters going back and forth across the tracks between the parking lot and the spit. We all know that >90% of people at lyle are accessing it illegally by crossing the tracks. To promote or even suggest a kite competition at lyle without addressing the obvious legal issues surrounding access seems irresponsible at best and in the view of non kiters likely compromises the legitimacy of CGKA as an advocacy group for kiting in the gorge. I'm all for supporting access for all of us in the gorge but actions like this make me hesitant to spend money supporting CGKA.

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[b:13763ca0d3]The CGKA is your advocate for Kiteboarding in the Gorge! [i:13763ca0d3] Join now: [/i:13763ca0d3]GorgeKiter.com/join[/b:13763ca0d3]

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cgka

Since 18 Jul 2006
274 Posts

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PostFri Jul 27, 18 5:03 pm     Reply with quote

Not to add too much to the already information full discussions, but here is a link to a time when we had the most communications and difficulty with the Railroad.
I will also cut and paste the posted information.

http://www.nwkite.com/forums/t-14859.html




PostTue Aug 18, 09 8:12 am The Truth About Lyle (resubmission for CGKA)
This is a post from Melokitegirl and her husband from their experience meeting with some railroad officials in Lyle after the death incident Mid August 2009.
I am posting this on the CGKA section as it will survive a little longer as an informational topic for CGKA members to view.

Quote:
Yes, it's me again..talking about the forbidden subject. Fight Club just doesn't work & I'm tired of reading posts that are misinformed. I went back & re-read just about everything. The point here for me is that it just took a few bad apples by parking like a jack ass & being viewed by train conductors to have Lyle on the radar. Doug's Beach has nothing to do with Lyle & quite frankly the CGWA has their shit together & has tenure with the area - good for them.

My husband & I have been regulars at Lyle for a few years. We live close by & I pass it twice a day when I go to work in The Dalles. We have had many discusions between us and with Forrest, Pepi & the CGKA - We go to meetings when we can.

So here is a a post from my husband -

The Truth about Lyle
August 16, 2009


I�ve never posted on your Forum before, but I have been reading it for about a year.

Without going into all of the details of who I am and what I do, suffice it to say that I�ve been around the legal aspects of real estate access issues, real estate development, dealing with government agencies, and the courts for about as long as many of you reading this have been alive. I�m not trying to be terse about it, I just want whoever reads this to understand my frame of reference. To put it simply, you should listen to what I�m going to say because I know a LOT more about this stuff than most of you reading this. But one thing I have in common with all of you: I love kiting at Lyle.

Besides my work and personal experience, I have something else most of you reading this don�t have: primary information about the situation (not guesses or wondering). With the recent events of this weekend, I�ve decided to �come out� and address the issues as I understand them so that anyone reading also has a better understanding of what is really going on. I will address these points:

What happened Friday at White Salmon,
Who I talked to at Lyle on Saturday,
The Railroad�s position,
Suggestions for a real access solution (one that might actually work)
Suggestions for this website

The following information comes directly from a BN senior enforcement officer (whose name I will withhold): On Friday August 14, a woman was killed at RR milepost 87 near the White Salmon bridge. She was watching the windsurfers/kiters on the south side of the tracks with her family. She was coming back up and preparing to cross. If you remember, the wind was 30+ that day in the Gorge. The train was heading west and the wind was coming from the west. She didn�t hear the train coming. It was probably travelling 55+ mph. The side bar that extends horizontally out on the first train car hit her and severed her. She died instantly.

I went to Lyle on Saturday (and Friday and Thursday). On Saturday there were two BN officers there. I approached them to get BN�s position on �new world order� in Lyle. The officers were cool. Very cool. Surprisingly cool. They completely understand that we are there to recreate and they know that most of us are no real problem. However, they get their orders from �above� and with the death Saturday the new mandate is no more warnings, tickets are to be issued. So here�s the real deal about the tickets: first offense tickets are a mandatory night in jail, an appearance in front of the judge, a $250 ticket, and a criminal misdemeanor on your record. The $250 won�t hurt, and maybe you know what it�s like to stay in the jail hotel. But the criminal misdemeanor will hurt you. It stays on your record permanently and means you�ll probably never get into Canada and maybe not Mexico either. Make no mistake, these guys have the authority, the jurisdiction, and they carry Glocks, radios and handcuffs. They�re real cops and they�re not fucking around anymore.

The railroad�s position is pretty simple: they�re exposed again to getting sued by the family of the woman killed and it�s probably going to cost them a lot of money. Now think about it for a minute: if you were in this position, would you really feel good about granting access across your property to a bunch of kiters who do nothing for you at all but potentially put you in a position of severe liability and costing you thousands or hundreds of thousands? Do you really think the people in TX who make the decisions care how much beer and food you buy in Lyle? (Common sense is required to answer these questions). So unless you have another way to get to the sandbar, you should pretty much write Lyle off your list for this year. Remember: they don�t care that you�re kiting, they only care that you cross the tracks (over or under) to get there. Note I said �over or under�. Yes, I asked because I�ve been under the bridge just like a few of you.

There has been a lot of talk, rumor and posting about Lyle since the beginning of the summer. There�s also been a bunch of talk at the CGKA level (see Betty Boarder, Forrest , Melokitegirl posts et al). In my experience in dealing with these kinds of things, it really takes a �point person� and �point organization� to get it done correctly. It also takes money. Make no mistake: it really is best for the CGKA to take the lead on this, after all they�re supposed to represent the kite community in the Gorge (I�m a member). Obviously any kite location is better with 2 people than 20, but I would like to see the access open for everyone. We�re really all in this together; at least that�s how I see it. And that�s why I�m going to close my comments with something many of you won�t want to hear�

My suggestion to all of you who post things about Lyle (or anything else for that matter but especially Lyle), don�t use this Forum anymore to make yourself sound like a dumbshit. Many of you do without knowing it (note: I certainly don�t mean �everyone�, but it really only takes 1-2 to stain the whole group). Poking fun back and forth is one thing, but Lyle access has now become a serious matter for those of us who seriously care about it. Why do I say this? Because the railroad knows about this Forum and they do monitor it (yes, I asked and they�re probably going to read this post as well). While I was talking to the BN officers, one guy came up and actually asked the officer if it was ok to jump over the tracks or dig a tunnel underneath to get to the beach�he actually asked the officer this! I�m sure he is a great guy and probably a great kiter too (better than me I�m sure)�but people like him are the last people who should be opening their mouths directly to representatives of BN. Pepi and Mike are right: from now on, stay OFF this forum for your Lyle discussions. Use your PM thing or your cell phone or whatever you do to talk to each other; just don�t do it here. If you really want Lyle to have a shot at being open, being the Ambassador of Stupidity will do more to harm than help. Sorry to be so abrupt and sound like such an ass, but the stakes are too high here not to say something. Think about it: even the �regulars� couldn�t stop parking in the south side of HWY 14 this summer. The moral of the story? Land rights are enforceable, so is trespass. But I guess we all know that now don�t we?

It�s a new world order friends; Lyle isn�t just a sneaky conversation anymore, this time it�s the real deal. There has been a death and the owner (BN) doesn�t want to see another one. They are an equal opportunity enforcement agency�it�s doesn�t matter if you�re a tourist or a local; they�re watching and you�re going to get busted. If you really want to help, keeping your mouth shut (and your fingers off the keyboard) is the best way to do that. Let the people at CGKA organize and work on your behalf. It may not work, but they are the best shot and at this point this is why they are there. I STRONGLY suggest you join the CGKA organization. Money will be required, it always is for these things. As this moves forward, be prepared to buck up.

All of this said, if you want to rip me, tell me what a dick I am, or compliment me, you can PM Melokitegirl and she will get it to me. I will gladly respond to any of the three. I just figured it�s finally time that someone put �the truth� out there.

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