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Tack/gybe etiquette and right of way?
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5walnut10

Since 01 Aug 2014
43 Posts

 



PostMon Sep 11, 17 10:21 pm    Tack/gybe etiquette and right of way? Reply with quote

Recently I've run into the same kiter at a 3 different beaches. He has a tendency to follow me (or anyone else) directly in the calm section of my wake right up to shore.

This seems like a dick move since he's basically forcing people to stop when they get close to shore since he's cutting off anyone's ability to change direction.

Does this fall into any kind of sailing right of way rules? I'm going to say something the next time he does it to me but I'd like to know the proper etiquette to inform him of. He seems oblivious to the fact he's screwing people over.

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dwaynej

Since 09 Sep 2013
186 Posts

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PostMon Sep 11, 17 11:50 pm     Reply with quote

I would tell hime its a dick move and explain why. Worst case is force the issue with a transition while being prepared to lower your kite and sail below him. Duck tack on a directional/foil would also be cool.

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bwd

Since 04 Aug 2007
345 Posts

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PostTue Sep 12, 17 4:30 am     Reply with quote

Options:
Tell him not to do it.

Sit on him (slow down gradually and head progressively downwind).

Just lay into a huge carve unexpectedly and downloop your kite, it will go right under him. Throw some gang signs as you unspin your bar and ride past him.
Seriously, a wall of spray and a crisp downloop will make most losers back off.

Finally, while a little passive-aggressive, it seems him doing this is the perfect setup for you to return the favor. If you chase him all the way into the shore so he has to stop, then you can have your heart to heart. Or maybe get your ass kicked.

Ultimately, best is to up your game or talk amicably.
But downloops are easy, and if you can learn to pinwheel your kite or fly it backwards a little it will freak lawn mowers out... Twisted Evil

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Matt V

Since 26 Oct 2014
276 Posts
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PostTue Sep 12, 17 6:27 am     Reply with quote

My first tangle with another kiter was because of this. I ride a directional that I can go all the way in since the fins can be stood on. A strapless guy came in all the way on me and he fell while trying to surf some 10" whitewater. By the time I turned my kite to maintain power (the wind was dead on the inside), this guy was going underwater and turning his kite toward me. With little wind in the kite and high current on the inside, I had no option to turn the kite back. Downloop was the only thing that would have worked but my kite was just a foot ahead of his lines.

I am sure he learned to not push someone in that far on the inside. I learned that that when Ft. Stevens is crowded, there will be a lot of people there that do not have any idea of ocean etiquette and safety.

And to the original posters question, sailing racing or navigation rules do not address a kiteboarding situation. The difference is that kiteboarders can get really close to each other without colliding (hi-five, for example). But that is only if they work their kites in unison. Once their kites are out of sync, the distance required to avoid collision (of the kites) is the kite line length anywhere on the wind-window, and possibly the sum of the distance of both wind windows for each kiter. Sailing does not have this problem as almost all of sailing collisions are with hulls, not sails. Thus the sailing rules seem to not address the unique situation of the "wind-window" that kiters have. I am sure that there must be some rule in kite racing for this. Hopefully a racer will chime in on this. Or post this question on Kiteforum for an international response.

As others have suggested, there is a chance he will learn if you do it to him. However, it is more likely that this is a kiter that lacks any degree of empathic intelligence or the ability "to wear someone else's shoes".

If a you hold that kiter on the inside like they did to you, and they get angry about it, they may not have ability to think in a way that allows them to see both sides of the situation. This is very common in the human population. And it is not something you can fix while out on the water with them. In fact, the only remedy for a person who is like this is a rule that eliminates question of who was in the right, and who was in the wrong. If you have a rule in place to prevent this situation, this guy can follow the rule and not have to think about what is going on or why the rule exists. This is an example of why rules exist - there is a variety of different intelligence levels that exist across the human race and some levels are incapable of addressing common situations of conflict. Rules allow a certainty of external authority for someone who would normally create an internal authority based on how they felt and the outcome being positive for themselves.

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Last edited by Matt V on Tue Sep 12, 17 7:14 am; edited 5 times in total

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jaksavage

Since 02 Dec 2009
180 Posts
hood river
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PostTue Sep 12, 17 7:04 am     Reply with quote

Jump that usually clears out the riff raff. Twisted Evil
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voy-tech

Since 08 Apr 2014
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PostTue Sep 12, 17 7:21 am    Re: Tack/gybe etiquette and right of way? Reply with quote

5walnut10 wrote:
Does this fall into any kind of sailing right of way rules? I'm going to say something the next time he does it to me but I'd like to know the proper etiquette to inform him of. He seems oblivious to the fact he's screwing people over.


And technically yes this is a violation of rules of way since he's limiting your maneuverability by "pushing you" to shore line without giving room to maneuver. That said it seems like only some people who come from sailing know those rules so I wouldn't count on that person to know that and/or care.

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5walnut10

Since 01 Aug 2014
43 Posts

 



PostTue Sep 12, 17 7:38 am     Reply with quote

Thanks for the comments everyone. Sounds like I'll just chat with this guy on the beach.

If that doesn’t work I'll switch to enlightening him via experiential education.

I'll keep working on my strapless airs. Right now my ollies don't clear anyone out Wink

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west

Since 09 Oct 2008
63 Posts
Lake Michigan
 



PostTue Sep 12, 17 8:26 am     Reply with quote

It ain't a back alley you're talking about, it's the beeeeeeach buddy.

Sheez guys, enuff with the intimidation tactics; guy probably following you cause he's trying to learn something. Share a pop and a smile, and remember you're at the dam beach not a pool hall! Gain a little perspective: there were times, and there are places where you just hope to see another kiter, count your blessings!

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Sasquatch

Since 09 Mar 2005
1548 Posts
P-town
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PostTue Sep 12, 17 8:40 am     Reply with quote

First of all, is this crowding occurring at ocean beaches or on a river or lake?

If you see the rider again, I'd just go up to them with a beer in-hand, offer them a cold one, an explain to them (in a chill and friendly way) what their proximity to you does to you and what dangers you and them are being exposed to.

This is a bigger issue out in the ocean and riding waves. Sure the rider coming in riding waves has right-of-way, but try and ascertain every situation.

If you see a less competent rider trying to ride out into the break and past the break and that person is hitting a wave (or might stall or get munched) back off/ turn around for a few seconds and then turn around again and back into shore. The rider can be extremely competent too.

If this person or any person just never backs down or concedes position or right-of-way, then that person probably needs a talking to as that person is either clueless or just in it for themselves/selfish/an a-hole.

Most people are chill and cool, but there is always an a-hole here-and-there:

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Last edited by Sasquatch on Tue Sep 12, 17 9:23 am; edited 2 times in total

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5walnut10

Since 01 Aug 2014
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PostTue Sep 12, 17 8:52 am     Reply with quote

I don't think anyone is talking about aggression/intimidation (unless I'm miss reading their comments).

This is happening in the river. The guy definitely knows how to ride, but he's not doing anyone favors while he's out there. Beyond him trapping me/others at the shore I've seen him yell at newbies for being in the water and he's definitely the guy who likes to boost big right next to you.

I'd like to think he just doesn't realize what he's doing. He's never hanging out with anyone on the beach, just seems to be in his own world.

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dwaynej

Since 09 Sep 2013
186 Posts

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PostTue Sep 12, 17 8:53 am     Reply with quote

west wrote:
It ain't a back alley you're talking about, it's the beeeeeeach buddy.


Its how do you respond to a specific situation when you are on the water.

Yelling across the water absolutely does not work and can only cause more angst. Learning situational awareness requires teachable moments and the suggestions above should work well.

Last edited by dwaynej on Wed Sep 13, 17 11:11 am; edited 1 time in total

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bigjohn

Since 13 Mar 2012
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PostTue Sep 12, 17 9:10 am     Reply with quote

Food for thought...

A lot of riders tend to do two things that will increase the odds of this happening:

1 - Ride directly in front of the launch spot
2 - Ride all the way in to shore

I'm not saying that the original poster was doing these things, but when two kiters crowd the shore at the same time one of them is always going to get trapped on the inside.

I understand that the coast has different factors involved... but I very rarely get trapped on the inside on the river. Then again I usually prefer not to ride all the way up to shore either...

It's all about playing the odds.

There's a lot of open water out there. Enjoy it!

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Slappysan

Since 13 Jun 2012
179 Posts

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PostTue Sep 12, 17 9:33 am     Reply with quote

2 options:

- You can just downloop and cross downwind of him with your kite low

- you can turn your head, look him in the eye, raise your hand and give the horizontal circular motion with your index finger, wait 5 sec then make your turn

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voy-tech

Since 08 Apr 2014
274 Posts
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PostTue Sep 12, 17 3:27 pm     Reply with quote

I have a question on a somehow related topic, couple weeks ago i was in Manzanita (third time in waves, first this year), I'm pretty confident in the break (on twin tip) although i have my kook moments.

Me and a guy below (and in front) of me were riding out (right tack) he was about a wave length from me, from my perspective he had a lot of space to maneuver and catch a wave back to shore without any risk of tangling/collision, he turns his head to me and starts cursing me. Had no idea what i did wrong so I just turner around and continued with my ride. He had a lot of aggression and shouted at me couple times when he was passing me - he was really good on surfboard. If i did some kook move i'm not aware of i'd like to know so that i don't repeat that next time.

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bwd

Since 04 Aug 2007
345 Posts

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PostTue Sep 12, 17 4:19 pm     Reply with quote

@ Voy-tech
Perhaps he was wanting to ride the wave opposite to the way you expected? Sometimes riding the more upwind side is better, depending on reef/bar dynamics or wind direction. The wind can hold one side of the wave up or open more...

Anyway, extra space in waves is good...

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Sasquatch

Since 09 Mar 2005
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P-town
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PostTue Sep 12, 17 4:35 pm     Reply with quote

I'm pretty sure right hand forward doesn't apply in the break. Rider coming in on the wave or waves has right-of-way over rider going out.

From your confusingly worded description of the situation in the waves during your session at Manzo, you basically were headed out into the break and maybe past the break? So was Mr. Aggro., who yelled at you? Basically you were up-wind of him and closer to shore by 1 break/wave, and 1 beak wave was the distance he was ahead of you? Or was he one wave ahead of you and downwind of you by the same distance?

If you were up-wind of him and bearing down (getting closer and 1 line length away or less) upon him you were in the wrong. Person downwind of you has right-of-way. Perhaps this guy wanted to edge real hard and attempt to make more upwind progress?

Perhaps you were just too close for his comfort level and left no margin in case something bad were to happen.

Lots of water out there, seek space and freedom. Of course at Manzo (like any wave or break locale) there are better places to be on the water. Ever notice all the kiters hanging out in line with the huge Billy Joel "House of Glass" or the all white house with the royal blue metal roof. That is where there is a bigger sandbar and better waves form there.

http://www.nwkite.com/forums/t-22202-0-asc-17.html

Above is a great post on wave etiquette by locals that live and breath it everyday (almost).

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Gman

Since 11 Feb 2006
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Portland
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PostTue Sep 12, 17 6:46 pm     Reply with quote

voy-tech wrote:
I have a question on a somehow related topic, couple weeks ago i was in Manzanita (third time in waves, first this year), I'm pretty confident in the break (on twin tip) although i have my kook moments.

Me and a guy below (and in front) of me were riding out (right tack) he was about a wave length from me, from my perspective he had a lot of space to maneuver and catch a wave back to shore without any risk of tangling/collision, he turns his head to me and starts cursing me. Had no idea what i did wrong so I just turner around and continued with my ride. He had a lot of aggression and shouted at me couple times when he was passing me - he was really good on surfboard. If i did some kook move i'm not aware of i'd like to know so that i don't repeat that next time.


some people are just dicks...

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