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Nevo
Guest
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 Tue Jul 11, 17 8:20 pm |
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Tried to explain to a few people that kiting the mouth of the river is bad for our overall situation today. They agreed not to kite there until I walked away. Apparently they don't give a .... about access issues.
They were young guys, advanced freestyle riders. Long bleach blond hair. Feel free to chime it to others when there. Gotta make some effort even if we're the ones ruining it anyway.
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macgruber
Since 06 Dec 2011
490 Posts
SE PDX volcano
Obsessed
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| Wed Jul 12, 17 7:26 am Rowena |
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I haven't kited there for a couple years but I'd pitch in for a metal catwalk under the bridges. Kiting in the rivermouth will probably keep it from happening.
I usually hit Rowena for that section since the waves towards Dougs are nice. Not bad flatwater on the Oregon side too. Really excited for some new gravel to launch from when the Cove is flooded. Cody?
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Matt V
Since 26 Oct 2014
462 Posts
Summer- OR Coast, Winter - My van near good snow
Explosive Diarrhea
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| Wed Jul 12, 17 7:50 am |
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| user124 wrote: |
I didn't THREATEN anyone. |
| user124 wrote: | | Maybe what the BNSF needs is a good lawsuit from the family of one of the fatalities to address the willful ignorance on the part of the BNSF regarding this ongoing issue. |
I am sorry. I apparently misunderstood the above latter (origional) quote. I am pretty sure I did not take it out of context. But, are you now saying that the original quote is not a threat and that you wish the railroad no harm via someone taking your idea to sue for a death on the tracks? And specifically, that you hold no hope for a "that'll show em" lawsuit that would give you pleasure, and you do not actually suggest anyone sue the railroad?
If so, that would help those that donating their time to the cause of legal and safe access to this area. Misinterpretations are often made and clarification in the above manner has the potential to smooth things over somewhat in an attempt to undo some of the damage the original quote has caused.
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user124
Since 02 Aug 2012
391 Posts
Portland
Obsessed
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| Wed Jul 12, 17 8:50 am |
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| Matt V wrote: | | user124 wrote: |
I didn't THREATEN anyone. |
| user124 wrote: | | Maybe what the BNSF needs is a good lawsuit from the family of one of the fatalities to address the willful ignorance on the part of the BNSF regarding this ongoing issue. |
I am sorry. I apparently misunderstood the above latter (origional) quote. I am pretty sure I did not take it out of context. But, are you now saying that the original quote is not a threat and that you wish the railroad no harm via someone taking your idea to sue for a death on the tracks? And specifically, that you hold no hope for a "that'll show em" lawsuit that would give you pleasure, and you do not actually suggest anyone sue the railroad?
If so, that would help those that donating their time to the cause of legal and safe access to this area. Misinterpretations are often made and clarification in the above manner has the potential to smooth things over somewhat in an attempt to undo some of the damage the original quote has caused. |
Take it however you like. I think I made my point.
I'm done with you. Stop trying to be the internet police and get a life.
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Matt V
Since 26 Oct 2014
462 Posts
Summer- OR Coast, Winter - My van near good snow
Explosive Diarrhea
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| Wed Jul 12, 17 8:56 am |
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I will try to get a life, if you just would allow us to say that your statement was misinterpreted and not actually a call for the BNSF to be sued by a third party. Again, your help would be extremely appreciated in this ongoing matter.
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MSN has temporarily removed commenting on our websites while we explore better ways for you to engage in discussion on the issues you care about. |
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shane s
Since 19 Jun 2013
11 Posts
Hood
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| Wed Jul 12, 17 9:39 am |
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| ldhr wrote: | Access across the tracks is one problem.
Kiting in the river mouth where the locals fish is just as big a problem.
We need their support and they will not support kiting if we continue to kite on the east side of the delta. They've been fishing there for 100 years - they deserve respect. |
Have people really heard the argument that kiters are killing or affecting salmon runs by kiting in the river mouth? Or is it just that fisherman don't like kiters getting in the way?
I am not fish biologist but I have dabbled, and the argument that kiters are hurting fish by kiting in the mouth just doesn't hold water. First, the only run that corresponds with kiting season is summer steelhead and maybe fall chinook in September. The only run that people fish the mouth are the fall chinook and mostly in the morning. I just don't see a big conflict here. Plus the way fish hold at the bottom and then move in spurts, the width of the river, the time of day and the conditions that kiters are in the water all point to an insignificant effect on fish movement. Steelhead are not manatees. They are determined powerful fish that fight strong current, steep rapids and falls to reach spawning areas. I don't see how a surface disturbance by a few kiters is going to harm or deter them.
Have people hit salmon while kiting in the mouth of the Klickitat or Hood? If boats are in the water then obviously kiters should keep a good distance. But has anyone heard the argument that kiters are actually hurting fish runs?
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Sasquatch
Since 09 Mar 2005
2088 Posts
PNW
Bigfoot
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| Wed Jul 12, 17 10:13 am |
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| shane s wrote: | | ldhr wrote: | Access across the tracks is one problem.
Kiting in the river mouth where the locals fish is just as big a problem.
We need their support and they will not support kiting if we continue to kite on the east side of the delta. They've been fishing there for 100 years - they deserve respect. |
Have people really heard the argument that kiters are killing or affecting salmon runs by kiting in the river mouth? Or is it just that fisherman don't like kiters getting in the way?
? |
I don't really have a dog is this fight as I don't kite at "fight club". But I would love to see another location develop to take away some of the crowds and pressure upon the Event Site/Sand Bar. And I also would love to see the hamlet river town of Lyle get some more economic/fiscal love with kiters spending $ there.
that said. . .
I don't have any data to back it up, but I would think any type of disturbance on the water surface would scare fish away and or deter fish from striking bait/feeding; especially in a shallow environment like at the mouth/sandbar.
Ask this fishman what he thinks about kiting and how it affects his fishing results (oldie but a goodie). . .
https://vimeo.com/37276314 minute 1:17 to 1:37
I'm obviously joking around. Give the fishmen some distance and respect their activity.
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snaggle_carpus_fishing_the_fightclub_lylesandbar_beach_071117.jpg |
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FreerideWhiteSalmon
Since 17 May 2012
64 Posts
CGKA Member
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| Wed Jul 12, 17 11:05 am |
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| Snaggle Carpus is rough!!!
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deminimis
Since 15 Jul 2014
326 Posts
On the Rocks
Obsessed
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| Wed Jul 12, 17 11:07 am |
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| Ah the classics. Dangler needs to get that shoulder looked at.
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moondog
Since 15 Aug 2007
703 Posts
white salmon
Addicted
CGKA Member
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| Wed Jul 12, 17 3:27 pm |
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I personally have hit 5 or 6 salmon kiting around the WS river. I have many salmon fishermen friends and they are not real impressed with kiters buzzing their boats. One mentioned some of their tackle could do some major damaged to kiter or kite. They usually collect at the mouth of both rivers which affects the launch at the Wunderbar. I suggest that kiters stay at least 100 feet away from their boats. I watched a kiter buzz some boats a Lyle one day and the fishermen are yelling at him to get out of the mouth and away from their boats. He flipped them the bird and continued up the Klickitat mouth. This behavior ruins any hope of access under the RR trestle. BE COURTEOUS AND SHARE THE RIVER, of all the agencies sharing this magnificent waterway we are at the bottom of the priority list.
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moondog |
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wylieflyote
Since 30 Jun 2006
1647 Posts
Puget Sound & Wa. Coast
XTreme Poster
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| Wed Jul 12, 17 6:18 pm |
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| deminimis wrote: | | Ah the classics. Dangler needs to get that shoulder looked at. |
HA  Some of this stuff here has me wondering if it's blowing in The Gorge. Sounds almost like January rage.
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CGKA Member
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Kip Wylie |
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flipper
Since 17 Oct 2011
320 Posts
Obsessed
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| Wed Jul 12, 17 6:54 pm |
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| Matt V wrote: |
I gotta call out:
flipper
fisherman
user124 |
The above posters are bad news. 
BNSF is a bully. Simple as that. I guess we can give them our lunch money this time, but there will be a time when enough is enough.
Access for all users. We can take land away from private corporations. Gems like this should not be restricted. From the Oregon Beach Bill, "Oregonians struggling to maintain public access to Pacific Ocean beaches won a decisive battle in 1967 with the passage of legislation commonly known as the Beach Bill, which established public access to Oregon’s beaches from the first dune to the sea. It was a right most Oregonians thought they already had."
If we don't want to draw blood, we need a "Lyle Bill", giving everyone access to the sandbar. Share it with the fishermen. Share it with the Indians. I'd even let the train pass from time to time. Matt V, you are a politician! Please start that bill up!!!! Cite the citizen sitting on or walking the tracks, but surely not crossing the tracks. BNSF I hope you are listening, because you suck. You know it. We know it.
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pollywog
Since 07 Aug 2009
291 Posts
Obsessed
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| Wed Jul 12, 17 7:48 pm |
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"that said. . .
I don't have any data to back it up, but I would think any type of disturbance on the water surface would scare fish away and or deter fish from striking bait/feeding; especially in a shallow environment like at the mouth/sandbar."
Well not any kind of disturbance cuz the whole purpose around fly fishing is to land a fly on the water and have a fish catch that.
It's the level of the disturbance. It's also the depth, as you mentioned.
A kiteboarder could certainly disturb a fish depending on the water depth. Boats can but again the level plays a role.
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Gun control means hitting the bulls eye... |
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Ho-Toe
Since 30 Apr 2014
231 Posts
pissed-off science guy like Bill Nye
CO2 quantifier & upwelling specialist
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| Wed Jul 12, 17 9:55 pm |
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| Matt V wrote: | | I will try to get a life, if you just would allow us to say that your statement was misinterpreted and not actually a call for the BNSF to be sued by a third party. Again, your help would be extremely appreciated in this ongoing matter. |
Who is "us"?
Do you have multiple personality disorder? You're a bit wobbly in your orbit, and you're morphing into the new Bulae99.
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jerp
Since 22 Feb 2013
453 Posts
Obsessed
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| Thu Jul 13, 17 7:12 am |
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| Ho-Toe wrote: | | Matt V wrote: | | I will try to get a life, if you just would allow us to say that your statement was misinterpreted and not actually a call for the BNSF to be sued by a third party. Again, your help would be extremely appreciated in this ongoing matter. |
Who is "us"?
Do you have multiple personality disorder? You're a bit wobbly in your orbit, and you're morphing into the new Bulae99.
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ahh Bulae99... that takes me back. Say what you will he/she led to some entertaining posts.
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Matt V
Since 26 Oct 2014
462 Posts
Summer- OR Coast, Winter - My van near good snow
Explosive Diarrhea
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| Thu Jul 13, 17 8:11 am |
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| Ho-Toe wrote: | | Matt V wrote: | | I will try to get a life, if you just would allow us to say that your statement was misinterpreted and not actually a call for the BNSF to be sued by a third party. Again, your help would be extremely appreciated in this ongoing matter. |
Who is "us"?
Do you have multiple personality disorder? You're a bit wobbly in your orbit, and you're morphing into the new Bulae99.
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“Us” is referring to when, some years from now, “we” or another group of kiters, are making a presentation for safe/legal access to this area or even another area. After a lengthy presentation detailing all of the issues and our proposed solutions, we give the floor over to debate on the proposal. With state and local officials won over, the BNSF will likely grill us on the kiting community’s (those who will utilize this access) attitude toward the project, and specifically “our” view of the railroads right to private property. We say that just like windsurfers at Doug’s Beach, kiters self police, respect other users in the area, and have the utmost respect for the right of the railroad to operate unimpeded by our presence.
Thinking we have a good leg to stand on, the BNSF representative then pulls out printouts of banter on THIS public forum detailing a call for the BNSF to be sued into submission and forced to allow access to all of their property deemed valuable as an outdoor resource. With a few others posting agreement with this idea, we hit a brick wall with the needed BNSF cooperation, who is the last and most important player in negotiations. Even the politicians find it hard to take a stance against private property rights as most of their regularly voting constituents own private property.
This means game over for us. Years of legal research, mapping, estimates, paid impact studies, and volunteer hours – all down the tubes because the BNSF can cite a publicly posted attitude and suggestion confirmed by more than one user that the BNSF deserves no respect with regards to their private property rights.
“We” has included “me and other active kiters” on many local issues and even issues at some of my destination kiteboarding venues. I have had, or participated in, many successes I am proud of. “We” will not include me on this issue if failure is made inevitable by those who have no problem with making the task impossible. In volunteering my time, I NEED to pick my battles. This battle is for a good cause, and is for some responsible users. But some in the community are making negotiations on this issue "a battle that cannot be won".
My suggestion is that if you care for this kiteboarding location, try to help – not hurt, those who are WORKING for this access and other locations. Fighting the other players in the mix is hard enough. But fighting your own fellow kiters????
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MSN has temporarily removed commenting on our websites while we explore better ways for you to engage in discussion on the issues you care about. |
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stevegriffith22
Since 14 May 2006
434 Posts
Obsessed
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| Fri Jul 14, 17 6:30 pm |
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| Singlemalt wrote: | BNSF is one of those big money corporations. They had a fatality. They don't like fatalities.
Memos are flying. Reviews are being written. Investigations, drug screens, mountains of paper work, lawyers. Safety programs are getting turned up to ten.
The unfortunate crew of that train is probably suspended, screened, lawyered up and doing mandatory counseling. While they wait to see if they are going to lose their jobs. And they killed someone.
If your job was to prevent these kind of fatalities, how would you do it? You'd be all over the enforcement guys. You'd want a bigger budget for more signage, fences, and enforcement. You'd hand out tickets and maybe throw a few offenders in jail. You'd be on local law enforcement to do the same.
Stay off the tracks. The railroads rule out here, and they will prove it. They are going to be hot and heavy for a while.
Yeah, I know, we would really like it to be otherwise, but it's not.
Me, I'd plead "no contest" send in my bail money and a note of apology. Maybe the court will kick some cash back. Sorry for your bad luck. The issue has always been that there is no legal way to cross the tracks to get down to the Lyle sandbar. No matter what your local kite forum says. 
I'd hate to see this spread to other gorge launch sites ( I don't even want to mention the sites) that have very similar issues. So let's not push our luck. Don't make them prove it. |
Ok, this guys got it dialed. I have been quietly part of this community for years and the lyle thing is always a issue. AS A FORMER CONDCUTOR from a family with 6 generations of railroaders for one of this railroads mentioned singlemalt has it nailed. The railroads rule, don't make em prove it. Its there land, they aren't socialist, they don't believe in sharing, they don't have too and they are hauling oil, grain, pot ash and intermodal units next to a river, any interference with that can be considered a domestic act of terrorism. The RR cops are essentially feds with no jurisdictional boundaries and work closely with the WSP, FBI, NTSB, FEMA and other federal agencies. Really want to test em, use a drone..... They don't care if you sue them, it won't go anywhere. They will do what ever it takes to keep things quiet, and moving. They don't like deaths, but they don't stop traffic for it either. They stop the train, get a manager, pull the tapes to make sure the engineer or conductor plugged the train, switch crews and move on. In most cases they wont drug test em, cause its not there fault someone was trespassing and got hit. To be clear I was drug tested any time I got a train somewhere on time so they can do it on straight time. I was tested all the time. They will enforce the law to prevent people getting wacked at lyle. Remember they have every right to protect there land, if they want to they can just put of a huge fence. Its like when people complain that the rail road is blocking a intersection as if the rail road cares. The road road was there first and you happened to put a road there or they bought the land and put a track there. RR crossings aren't even really paid for by the rail road, they are paid for by the people that want to crossing : cities, counties ect. I'm just letting you guys know, we as a community keep pushing it and calling names it makes us look weak. To be very blunt: they don't care what we think, threaten to do, or anything. It can easily become a federal issue being that BN line in the Gorge carries a large portion of the grain, oil and intermodal units between the Midwest and the global economy. Its wasted breath. And frankly I quit bitching when I realized I was using the products they transport. How can I complain about access when I drove a car to get there and they transported my car there, the material to make it and the oil and fuel to drive it. Its silly. Frankly theres a lot of places to kite, and this subject never makes people happy or shares they stoke. Now to BE CLEAR IM NOT DEFENDING ANYONE OR MAKING EXCUSES, I just don't want to here of anyone getting arrested or worse: have to here about a conductor or engineer who has finally had enough and just can't work anymore because he feels responsible for someone else walking in front of train. Mabey I'm the fool for thinking this issue will go away.... But on a better note, super stoked to be back.
Infact......Stringy can you bring the stoke back for us? Miss you bro! Pics Pics PiCs!
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