Northwest Kiteboarding
Forum | Classifieds | Lost & Found | CGKA | Industry | Sensors | Forecast | Spots | Seattle | Decals | RSS | Facebook

Events | Photos | Search | Register | Profile | Log in to check your messages | Log in 

Newb foiler - need some advice/tips please
Page 1, 2  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Northwest Kiteboarding -> Gorge / Portland / Oregon Coast
previous topic :: next topic  
Author Message
a_b

Since 30 Oct 2010
33 Posts

 



PostSun Mar 12, 17 7:38 pm    Newb foiler - need some advice/tips please Reply with quote

Hi Everyone,

This season, I've decided to take up foiling. I'm still in the midst of getting my gear set up. To start, I've picked up my foil (Zeeko Spitfire). Now I need to decided on what board to mount it on. I've been riding surfies strapless for a while and have a quiver of boards to put the foil on.

Here are my questions I'm hoping the foiling pros here can help me with:
1. I've got 3 boards to choose from, in order of decreasing volume:
2015 Cabrinha Phenom 5'5" x 18.5" x 2.2" (23.5L)
2008 Cabrinha S-Quad 5'3" x 17.25" x ?? (??L)
5'2" Stretch F4 Quad 5'2" x 16.25" x ?? (??)

My main all-around stick is the 5'3" S-quad, which for my small frame and lighter weight gets me from small to well overhead waves. The 5'2" is sort of a retired board for me since I started riding less powered. The Phenom is my lightwind board. On a typical wave day, I take both the s-quad and the phenom with me to the beach and choose whichever one matches the wind/wave conditions. The s-quad was recently retired with a 4'10" vader, which I don't expect to last since it's the LFT construction.

My question is which of these boards do you think would be ideal to use for foiling? I do realize that high volume is important. Should I plan to use my largest volume board or can I get away with my smallest board with the least amount of volume?

I also have the option of getting a Slingshot Alien Air which would be a direct plug and play. However, I'm not crazy about acquiring another board if I'm able to use what I currently have.

-----------
Construction: So based on how these boards feel to me, the order of durability goes like: phenom>s-quad>stretch. The phenom feels strong and is noticeably heavier than the other two boards. The s-quad feels solid on the top deck but the bottom deck feels less rigid to me. The stretch is the TL2 construction, is featherweight, and has amazing flex and ride but definitely does not have a strong deck top or bottom.

So how much should the board construction play into my decision? And based on what I've said above, which wboard would you recommend?

-----------
Regardless of which board I use, I do plan to core out the foam and pod up some epoxy inserts that I can drill through to attach my mast plate. I plan to minimize how much I drill through the top deck in order to spread the load as much as possible. I do plan on using sizable washers as well to distribute forces.

Any other special tips that you can share for this retrofit? Any other considerations that I'm missing here?

------------
If I'm to use the s-quad or the stretch board, I do fear that the bottom deck is not strong enough and might end up crushing the foam directly around the mast plate. To deal with this, I'm thinking of using a sub-plate, maybe 20"x8"x0.5" in size, to spread the load along the bottom of the board. You guys think this is overkill?

------------
Straps vs Foot hooks?
I've read a lot about these two options and currently leaning towards the foot hooks for safety reasons and as a nice compromise to the "strapless" feel. Am I reasonable with this approach?

Any other advice/tips would be great appreciated. Thanks.

View user's profile Send private message
Matt V

Since 26 Oct 2014
217 Posts
Summer- OR Coast, Winter - My van near good snow
Explosive Diarrhea



PostMon Mar 13, 17 7:32 am     Reply with quote

Volume? - not important at all. That said, volume or lack thereof definitely changes the feel of the board when the board is IN the water. This occurs on a hard touch down, and to a very minor degree when you are starting out. More important than volume is rocker. Lots of rocker can pop the foilboard back up to chase you down when you bail out. Just don't look behind you when this happens with a floaty rockered deck. But this rocker can also help you recover on those hard touch downs when you manage to hold it together. - Pros and cons to both.

Low volume, like the LF Kitefish or RocketFish, dive more safely and tend not to chase you down as much as other decks. Unfortunately on my home lake, we only have 6ft of depth and a muck bottom that tends to grab the foil and hold everything down below the surface. I am pretty sure our local lake is going to eat my FoilFish one day soon. So I would actually like to have a higher volume board with more rocker than the KiteFish (FoilFish) to help with this problem on this one lake that I kite spring and fall at.

No volume, like the Cabrinha Double Agent, still works and may do more to reduce the "being chased down" feeling you get when you bail ahead of the boards last known position. Ever thought of just using an old museum twin-tip kiteboard? I have not done this, but it could work and save your nice surfboards. You may need to put some more holes for foot straps and turn that TT into a bit of a mutant. Lots of museum TT's out there! I also know of some people who have broken their foil boards and replaced them with a piece of plywood. Glass it if you want, and if you need more float, get some EVA (super light weight) flooring on top for a comfy deck. It is in the workout section of Walmart or Harborfreight sells it in rolls. Just make sure you get the light weight stuff, not the smushy/heavy yoga mat material.


For you epoxy job, here is a link if you have time to sift through it. On a standard surfboard, you really need some re-enforcement's. This can be a glass overlay on the bottom, an epoxy pour (as in the link), or the stick on plate that is now commercially available. Being a lighter rider helps too.

BE CAREFUL WITH EPOXY POURS IN EPS CORES!!! Epoxy will get hot when insulated on the sides even if you use slow epoxy. I used G-flex with some High Density filler for the pours in the link. Still, on 2" thick boards, you would melt lots of foam from the heat generated by this pour. Luckily the Kite fish is only 1" thick and took the heat with no problem. Other boards I have done fin box pours have not fared so well. I think you are looking at coring out a 1-2" hole and using epoxy to place a plastic bushing inside of that. This will reduce the amount of epoxy used so there is less chance for it to heat up. The plastic will provide a much better heat conductor to keep the insulated areas near the center of the core from overheating. I have not tried this method, but it is the only solution I can think of. Better yet is to just buy a foil mount.

http://www.nwkite.com/forums/t-38494.html

And here is the stick on foil mount:

https://foilmount.com/

The Zeeko looks pretty cool! I would love to try a canard foil setup.


   FoilF1.jpg 

_________________
On NEFGA Forum posted by "Forum Moderators" "This has been recently discussed on two previous threads. Forum moderators feel no further discussion is warranted at this time. Have a nice day! (This thread has been closed)

View user's profile Send private message
a_b

Since 30 Oct 2010
33 Posts

 



PostMon Mar 13, 17 9:44 am     Reply with quote

Thanks for the tips Matt.

Funny you suggested a TT. I do have an old LF Proof 151cmx42cm, which was initially my first option. But then I worried about it not having enough float. It is a heavy board (8lbs), well built and well rockered. I might go back and consider it as my first option again once I confirm that it'll float with the foil attached. I imagine that it should.

Re: epoxy, good to know. This may be the reason why someone once told me to use a piece of PVC pipe to line my insert cut-outs before pouring the epoxy.

So far, I've done very little research on epoxy. I do have some kicking around and will see what kind of info I can find on it. Would it help to let the epoxy cure in cold outdoor temps (ie just above freezing?). I imagine that this will slow down the cure but I wonder if it would be enough to keep the resin from melting the foam.

View user's profile Send private message
stringy

Since 23 Jun 2006
1512 Posts
vancouver
XTreme Poster



PostMon Mar 13, 17 10:30 am     Reply with quote

if you're going to go forward with one of those surfboards, ask yourself which one are you least attached to?
I say this because eventually it will succumb to fatigue, water seepage, or even snapping board in half.
as for the proof, joe the kiter used one for a couple of seasons and it held up well. the board construction is similar to the fish so all you need to do to it is drill it and use it.
foot hooks are a good safe way to go about learning. nothing sucks worse than having your foot get stuck in a foot strap.

_________________
www.jimstringfellow.com

View user's profile Send private message
a_b

Since 30 Oct 2010
33 Posts

 



PostMon Mar 13, 17 11:33 am     Reply with quote

Thanks Stringy. Would I better to go with the TT route then? The mod for that would be easier and I think the overall build is more robust.

As for the surfboards, I would say that I'm least attached to the Stretch, which I suspect is the weakest of the three. It's still a solid board (kite construction, TL2) and it has inserts.

What do you think of using US longboard boxes embedded in 20" long x 7" corecell block as a track approach? See attached.


   pastedImage.png 

View user's profile Send private message
ldhr

Since 21 Jul 2009
742 Posts
Hood River
Addicted

CGKA Member


PostMon Mar 13, 17 12:21 pm     Reply with quote

a_b - did you look at the foil mount?
I'm guessing you're in a foreign country - but it's a peel and stick application with adjustable track.
you wouldn't have to cut or drill or epoxy.
you can add reinforcements if you're not confident of the strength.

check out this thread - http://nwkite.com/forums/t-40810-0.html

View user's profile Send private message
a_b

Since 30 Oct 2010
33 Posts

 



PostMon Mar 13, 17 12:44 pm     Reply with quote

Thanks. I'm definitely aware of the foil mount. I just don't want to go that route since I do want to still use my directionals without the foil.

For the TT, I think it would be silly to use one on it since the mods for it to take the foil seems pretty straightforward/simple.

View user's profile Send private message
Matt V

Since 26 Oct 2014
217 Posts
Summer- OR Coast, Winter - My van near good snow
Explosive Diarrhea



PostMon Mar 13, 17 4:20 pm     Reply with quote

a_b wrote:

So far, I've done very little research on epoxy. I do have some kicking around and will see what kind of info I can find on it. Would it help to let the epoxy cure in cold outdoor temps (ie just above freezing?). I imagine that this will slow down the cure but I wonder if it would be enough to keep the resin from melting the foam.


In the case of a 2" thick board, lower temps will not help as the EPS core insulates too well. Low temps only work to slow down a cure when epoxy is either mostly exposed on the surface or in contact with a conducting material that is exposed to the surface air temps. This is why even slow epoxy will not work for a pour like this.

My favorite epoxy is G-flex, though I would use System 3 or an equivalent to build a board with. G-flex is pretty expensive in any large quantity.

The best property's of G-flex are:

1. It is flexible and not brittle like most epoxies. Most other epoxies will crack when exposed to point loads or high stress corners. G-flex will not crack in a pour and drill application.
2. It does not care about water - and is one of the only epoxies that can be used underwater. This is great for use on boards you may think have a bit of water in them.
3. It has low heat generation because of it's long cure time. This makes it even better for pours. Just be careful as it could potentially still heat up enough to melt EPS/XPS.

_________________
On NEFGA Forum posted by "Forum Moderators" "This has been recently discussed on two previous threads. Forum moderators feel no further discussion is warranted at this time. Have a nice day! (This thread has been closed)

View user's profile Send private message
juandesooka

Since 21 Jan 2014
43 Posts

 



PostTue Mar 14, 17 3:48 pm     Reply with quote

some ideas in this one

http://www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Kitesurfing/General/Kite-foil-adapter-plate-for-a-surfboard

Here's my contribution ... which is kinda half assed, but seems to be holding up well for me. Very Happy

Get carbon shaft golf club from thrift store. Cut chunks to exact depth of surfboard from deck to bottom.
Drill hole in board the width of the shaft. Insert shaft and fill on outside with epoxy to have it fit solid in the board and watertight. [pro tip: before it dries, place mast plate on top, put bolts through, so that it forms up exactly right]

If you want to ensure whole thing is watertight, could put in layer of glass over top, then drill through for the holes.

The carbon shaft should provide compression strength....so the bolts don't crush the board when you tighten them.
I finished it off with two plastic plates....cut up pieces of cutting board. I figure this helps spread load of the mast plate, and also gave something to drill into to countersink the bolt tops.

A couple extra notes: a problem with golf club is that it's tapered...so only right diameter for part of it (means need more than one club possibly) and also that it isn't straight in the hole, wider at top or bottom. If you find another straight piece of carbon, all the better....maybe a tent pole?

Now, if you want to do it right.....supposedly the best way is to find G10 rods, drill them in, glass over. Then drill your bolt holes in the G10. Basically the same as the paddle bits filled with epoxy, recommended above.

View user's profile Send private message
wylieflyote

Since 30 Jun 2006
1035 Posts
Puget Sound & Wa. Coast
XTreme Poster



PostWed Mar 15, 17 9:41 am     Reply with quote

Here's my job from 2 years ago. Without these 3/8" oak stringers the EPS North Whip (5'8") was going to snap in half. I used the West Marine epoxy system. Wrapped each stick in 4 oz cloth, then wetted, then laid a top of 4 oz cloth. It was rock solid after that. Edit.... This was after Jim Stringfellow placed the mounting holes. He first drills 4 larger (2"?) holes and fills with urethane to seal for leaks to the EPS material. Agreed.... use a crap board you don't care about.


_________________
CGKA Member
-------
Kip Wylie

View user's profile Send private message
a_b

Since 30 Oct 2010
33 Posts

 



PostWed Mar 15, 17 4:45 pm     Reply with quote

Matt - I found a local source for Gflex. Thanks for the tip.
juandesooka - Thanks for the shaft idea. I'll see if I can find some. I'm guessing these are less than an inch in diameter? Got a pic of your set up?
wylie - i might try your suggestion when i mod my surfboard. How long are your stringers? 12"? How deep into the foam did you go? Presumably, you didn't go through the top deck. And did you just do one layer of 4oz cloth?

Right now, I think I'll try the TT conversion approach using an old LF Proof 151cmx42.5cm board. This board owes me nothing so I won't feel bad hacking it. Hopefully, it'll work well for foiling. I do need to check to make it'll float with the weight of the foil on it Smile

My current plan is to:
- rip out the strap inserts and re-set them along the center;
- pod up 4 holes for a bolt through connection to the mast plate;
- trim the board a bit to change the shape to look more directional. i might try and mimic the vader just for kicks Smile
- glass both top and bottom for reinforment

Hopefully my plan works. Btw, I research the board's construction and found this.
Compression molded
Polyurethane foam core
PBT top and bottom

Thanks.


   Proof_Kiteboard_07.jpg 

View user's profile Send private message
wylieflyote

Since 30 Jun 2006
1035 Posts
Puget Sound & Wa. Coast
XTreme Poster



PostThu Mar 16, 17 5:27 am     Reply with quote

a_b wrote:

wylie - i might try your suggestion when i mod my surfboard. How long are your stringers? 12"? How deep into the foam did you go? Presumably, you didn't go through the top deck. And did you just do one layer of 4oz cloth?


My stringers were just some oak we had around the house from an antique table. I cut them at 3/8" X 1/2" X 18". Plunge routered the board alongside Stringy's 4 base plate holes, wetted with epoxy and set them in the slots, cured overnight, then layered one sheet of 4 oz. cloth. After this mod the board would not flex in any direction. Previous to this mod I could have snapped the board in half easily. When I routered the slots I was no where near the top skin. I also use a fair amount of West Marine extender to thicken the epoxy I poured into the router slots.


a_b wrote:
Compression molded
Polyurethane foam core
PBT top and bottom

Thanks.


Looks like you will be fine to drill away without flooding the core with water.

_________________
CGKA Member
-------
Kip Wylie

View user's profile Send private message
guest

Since 24 Jan 2006
157 Posts

Stoked



PostThu Mar 16, 17 5:38 am    good idea Reply with quote

I really enjoyed the LF twintip foil.

   lffoilboard.jpg 
   lffoilboard1.jpg 

View user's profile Send private message
Matt V

Since 26 Oct 2014
217 Posts
Summer- OR Coast, Winter - My van near good snow
Explosive Diarrhea



PostThu Mar 16, 17 6:01 am    Re: good idea Reply with quote

guest wrote:
I really enjoyed the LF twintip foil.


Come on man! Did you move the footstrap inserts?????? or leave them. This mod would hinge on that for me. Everything else is simple and no risk. Moving the foot strap inserts almost makes this mod more of a hassle than building your own board.

_________________
On NEFGA Forum posted by "Forum Moderators" "This has been recently discussed on two previous threads. Forum moderators feel no further discussion is warranted at this time. Have a nice day! (This thread has been closed)

View user's profile Send private message
wylieflyote

Since 30 Jun 2006
1035 Posts
Puget Sound & Wa. Coast
XTreme Poster



PostThu Mar 16, 17 6:05 am    Re: good idea Reply with quote

Matt V wrote:

Come on man! Did you move the footstrap inserts?????? .


Maybe I'm seeing this wrong since I never owned any LF TT, but... In my experience you will be good with just a single FF Stringy foot hook very soon in your progression. Maybe the inserts line up for the single FF hook?

_________________
CGKA Member
-------
Kip Wylie

Last edited by wylieflyote on Thu Mar 16, 17 11:05 am; edited 1 time in total

View user's profile Send private message
juandesooka

Since 21 Jan 2014
43 Posts

 



PostThu Mar 16, 17 9:37 am     Reply with quote

a_b wrote:

juandesooka - Thanks for the shaft idea. I'll see if I can find some. I'm guessing these are less than an inch in diameter? Got a pic of your set up?


For sure less than an inch in diameter, talking about golf club drivers! Smile
I got 3 or 4 of them -- from thrift shop for $2 each and from broken clubs at driving range.

Like I said, a bit of a hassle dealing with a tapered shaft, because the diameter will be perfect at one end, and too wide at other. I found only a 6" section of the shaft had a snug enough inside diameter to hold the screw tight, so I needed more than one club. Same problem with the drilled hole in surfboard, snug at one end, and then a 1/4" gap at other. Doh. Just meant more epoxy to fill in the gap. Also meant needing to ensure inserts were not tilted a little (which I didn't do, so my bolts are just slightly off).

Here's some photos...unfortunately the close ups are super blurry.
"She ain't pretty, she just looks that way" Wink


   20160811_131103_resized_800x450.jpg 
   20160811_131125_resized_800x450.jpg 
   20160813_213528_resized_800x450.jpg 
   20160821_073548_resized_338x600.jpg 

View user's profile Send private message
a_b

Since 30 Oct 2010
33 Posts

 



PostThu Mar 16, 17 6:18 pm     Reply with quote

Nice to see the same board in action!!! Hopefully, I can get some answers to a few of my Qs:
- Was it just a straight drill through the core? Do I need to worry about it taking water?
- Any reinforcements on top and bottom deck?
- Did you pod new inserts since the tt set up or off center?
- Placement of mast relative to the foot strap inserts?
- How's the board holding out?

juan - Nice mod on the surfy. A few Qs for you too if you don't mind:
- how did you settle on mast placement relative to the tail of your board and rear foot placement?
- any significant flex on your board?
- did you pod some inserts in?
- how's your board holding out?

wylie - thanks for sharing the stringer details.

the next thing I now need to figure out is where to place the mast. Zeeko recommends setting the rear bolts ~27cm from the tail of their boards. do you guys think this is reasonable? i did find the specs below but the measurements are relative to the front strap inserts. i would've thought that it'd be more critical to reference the rear or does it really matter as long as my foot sits just behind the mast.

i think that may be the last bit of detail that i need before i start drilling Smile i'm hoping to be able to use the existing inserts. Since they're off-set, i'll add a 2nd row to be able to take my own custom DIY foot hooks. i really just need to know where to put the mast relative to my rear foot. once i figure that out, i'll see if the front straps inserts work where they are using my natural stance width. i'll likely add a few extra inserts to allow for other stance options for friends of mine that want to try the board.

thanks again.


   spitfire straps location on board.JPG 

View user's profile Send private message
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Northwest Kiteboarding -> Gorge / Portland / Oregon Coast All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You can attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum