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Surfboards and Weight of the rider
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skideeppow

Since 26 Aug 2011
518 Posts

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PostTue Nov 22, 16 8:53 am    Surfboards and Weight of the rider Reply with quote

I weigh around 220, am currently riding a Vader 5'2" and want to get a surfboard with a little bit more size and flotation.

I was in Maui last week, the board seemed to be riding well there, just wondering if i am missing by not having more float.

I was looking at the s quad (about 24litres) or the airrush compaq (24l as well).

Any thoughts on the relationship btw weight and volume of the board and how it will perform?


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Matt V

Since 26 Oct 2014
462 Posts
Summer- OR Coast, Winter - My van near good snow
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PostTue Nov 22, 16 9:08 am     Reply with quote

Guess I'll light the fuse.....

Volume is useless below about 5mph with regards to kiting (and even less as I can stop on a twin-tip for a few seconds during the transition). The lift of the kite, and the opposite > the horizontal pull, either negate most of your weight or provide enough pull to make you get to a sub planing speed with ZERO volume. That is why a twin-tip works kiting.

I have used twin-tips, and high volume pseudo race (finned) boards. Never have I ever witnessed an advantage to volume in a surfboard while kiting.

The high volume full on raceboard does have a purpose. And that is to float just a bit when moving less than 1mph on a stalled (zero pull/slack lines from the kite) jibe/tack. Those poor kite racers on oldschool finned boards carried all of that volume through out every single one of their races..... And the good racers never even used it.

Volume does have the disadvantage of not letting you sink the board to waterstart. Racers usually develop an extreme skill to waterstart a board with too much volume. Don't believe me? Try kiting your old 100liter windsurfboard or try "Stand Up Kiting" on your SUP. You will figure out what I am talking about pretty quickly.

Volume could also be seen as a disadvantage in that your lever arm (distance from foot to the planing surface (bottom) of the board gets bigger with more volume. This can induce some uncontrollable torques onto your feet with respect to how much "roll" you can control on the board/fin combination in a turn. I will admit that a tri-fin setup can allow you to have more volume than a specific quad setup that requires some "side loading" and has a high "roll force". This is because of the tri-finned stance being more directly over the board and the quad setup allowing more of a hiked out stance. When you "hike out", the geometry induces a moment that is not there when standing over the board. And typically, hiking out is not really allowed by a tri-fined setup like it is on a quad setup - some quads can REQUIRE the kiter be "hiked out" for upwind performance.

If I lost you on the tri vs. quad thing, let me put it this way - Have as much volume as you want with a tri-finned board. Quad finned boards typically feel better with less volume, at least at the back of the board.

Surfer TRIGGER WARNING for the below conjecture of my personal thoughts!!!

So why do kite surfboards even have volume? Some reasons are:

It is a hangover from windsurfing
It is a hangover from surfing
It is a "feel" thing

Having unnecessary volume can induce a "feel" as though you are still "surfing". But surfing, and windsurfing, have a good reason for volume that no kiter has today. And that is that the initiation of a water start (or catching a wave) happened at extremely low power in windsurfing and surfing. Your hands were all the power you had in surfing until you gained just a bit of power from the drop on a wave. And in windsurfing, the waterstart sail power was 99% devoted to puling you up on the board, which (the board) then mostly held you above the water, though very quickly afterward the sail also induced forward motion. Some would argue that the windsurfing sail would pull you forward at the same time as lifting you out of the water. This could be, but proof would be the ability to waterstart a near zero volume windsurfer. The lowest production windsurfboard that I am aware of was 50l for extremely high winds. TT kiters use a near zero liter board in light winds. Thus the difference of kiting minimum volume of zero, to windsurfings volume of 50l, in essentially infinite.

Want to debate this? It would end in me doing a stupid experiment of making a zero volume twin-tip that weighs 20lbs (or enough to sink my body) and trying to kite on it. Yes, I would loose the board if my kite touched the water, or die if my kite touched the water and I decided to use hard boots on the board. But a negative buoyancy (kind of like negative volume) would still be kitable. That is not going to work in surfing or windsurfing. Thus this is proof of the concept of infinite difference between zero and 50l volume - not just 50l difference.

But back to reality. With a kite, board or not, you can skip across the water pretty much on one dive of the kite even in light winds. By skip, I mean you are pulled out of the water, AND have forward motion enough to plane up (even on only your body - superman) with zero float other than your body. And actually, your body is 90% drag and is resisting the pull of the kite at the initiation of that one stroke of the kite.

End of surfer trigger warning....

So when using a kite as a power source, you never actually use any of the volume of a surfboard. You go from nothing to shape of the hull (bottom shape) instantly. Surfing and Windsurfing have the additional step of the "displacement" mode between nothing and riding. So 1. 2. 3. steps in Surfing/Windsurfing, and only 1. 2. in kitesurfing.

Given my choice in riding gear and style, low volume is what I need to ride. In fact, it is difficult for me to go back to my old high volume regular surfboards which were slightly modified:

North whip
Slingshot Coupe #1
Slingshot Coupe #2
Oldschool Naish boards

Now I use a 1" thick board for everything from light wind to high winds.

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Last edited by Matt V on Tue Nov 22, 16 10:21 am; edited 15 times in total

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ldhr

Since 21 Jul 2009
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Hood River
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PostTue Nov 22, 16 9:18 am     Reply with quote

Nice pic

I agree with Matt - once you're powered up and on a plane the performance is not effected by volume as much as the shape.

However - volume plays a big role in how fast the board pops up on a plane and how it handles in transitions - tacks and jibes.

Also - comparing volume for traditional shape vs. snub nose is not apples to apples.
24L in a snub nose would be equivalent to ~28 - 30 in a traditional surfboard with a full nose.

If your board is sinking when you do low speed jibes or you feel it's slow to pop up on a plane - try a bigger board.

I'm 185 pounds and my go to board for all conditions is a 5'8" with 26L of volume.
If you're 220 I'd guess you'd enjoy a bigger board~30L in a trad shape or ~24L in a snub nose shape for your bigger kites and lighter winds.

Personally I think boards are cheap (especially used ~ $350) and you should buy a few more boards.

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skideeppow

Since 26 Aug 2011
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PostTue Nov 22, 16 10:20 am     Reply with quote

Great info guys, maybe ill go with the 6 foot 28 litre, just to try something different.

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Matt V

Since 26 Oct 2014
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PostTue Nov 22, 16 10:32 am     Reply with quote

ldhr wrote:
Nice pic


However - volume plays a big role in how fast the board pops up on a plane and how it handles in transitions - tacks and jibes.


If your board is sinking when you do low speed jibes or you feel it's slow to pop up on a plane - try a bigger board.


I would still disagree that volume has any effect when below 50liters for a 180lb rider. Windsurfing has proven that as the lower limit. And even if a windsurfer could go below that, it would require high winds. But a light wind twin-tip can easily plane through a toe-side transition at very low speeds. This is the biggest flaw in the argument for volume.

As far as trying a bigger board to solve sinking in the transitions, the math just does not work. A few more liters, or even 15l more, will not help with planing as much as planing surface while sub planning.

I think the only argument is the "Feel" argument. Putting aside maximum performance, if how a board feels to you is the most important, then check out all volumes and planing surfaces/shapes.

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skideeppow

Since 26 Aug 2011
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PostTue Nov 22, 16 10:48 am     Reply with quote

so , 5'11" 215-220, riding that vader now, you think if i went to a surfboard of say, 6 feet, 29l it would be too cumbersome?
I don't really have a chance to demo because i don't live near water/wind.

i tried my buddy Airrush Compact in a 5 9 and loved it. Think if i go a little longer it would add to the quiver.

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AndrewZay

Since 22 Nov 2016
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PostTue Nov 22, 16 11:00 am     Reply with quote

Interesting topic that we used to talk about on the beach in Maui a lot.
There are a lot of guys switching to higher volume boards and smaller kites in Maui and a lot of wave spots we have been to. The volume of most kitesurf specific boards wont allow pure surfing without kite pull. I ride a board that is as thick as a board I would paddle surf on. Seems like most kiters haven't surfed much. using the kite to get on the wave, and then surfing with wave power alone, is not as popular but almost every kiter I know who is also a surfer is taking their kiting into that direction. You also ride standing up more and not so leaned back (kooky) High volume is great if the board has a proper bottom contour, rails and fins.

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Matt V

Since 26 Oct 2014
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PostTue Nov 22, 16 12:02 pm     Reply with quote

skideeppow wrote:
so , 5'11" 215-220, riding that vader now, you think if i went to a surfboard of say, 6 feet, 29l it would be too cumbersome?


This could be the feel that you are looking for. And in a production board, 6ft with 29l of baggage may be your only option. Or, buy the board, bandsaw half the deck off and turn it into a 14.5l board. If a quad, it may be worth it to re-glass the whole deck and add some reinforcements so it lasts more than 2 years. If you can manage the extra volume that you...can manage, then manage it. It could be just the ticket for the feel that you are going for.

AndrewZay wrote:
The volume of most kitesurf specific boards wont allow pure surfing without kite pull.


Designers have caught on to this. Many kiters want an edge to look better and to do more. If a designer can trim out just a little volume, they increase it's kitesurfing performance potential. This increases interest along with competition from other "lower volume is good "designs following the same criteria. Thus you have a slight downward pressure in board volume (displacement in liters)

Conversly, you have the following part of your statement.

AndrewZay wrote:
Interesting topic that we used to talk about on the beach in Maui a lot.
There are a lot of guys switching to higher volume boards and smaller kites in Maui and a lot of wave spots we have been to...............I ride a board that is as thick as a board I would paddle surf on. Seems like most kiters haven't surfed much. using the kite to get on the wave, and then surfing with wave power alone, is not as popular but almost every kiter I know who is also a surfer is taking their kiting into that direction. You also ride standing up more and not so leaned back (kooky) High volume is great if the board has a proper bottom contour, rails and fins.


The above is the upward pressure on volume in kitesurfboards. This attitude pushes back and stops designers from reducing the volume of kitesurfboards toward top end of their performance potential. An extremely low volume board stops to even look like a surfboard at some point, so customers shy away from them. The companies and independent shapers still need to win sales from customers who follow a group mentality created by "surfers first" or "used to surfers". In fact, the most successful shapers sell what sells, not what is best for you. Very few fringe shapers dare to tell you how it really is and buck the herd mentality. Doyle kitesurfboards comes to mind when you think of an innovator operating outside of the "form first, function second, sales above all" mentality. Lots of sports have this and we see it in the in your face marketing all the time.

And I have no intent to put down a group mentality of "kite surf this way!" even though I operate outside of the norm. Yes, I am a perpetual kook (leaned back) that gets lots of looks for the odd stuff I do on a pseudo surfboard. If anything I am in the minority on my views, so I try to stick to the mathematics of it. You should make your own assessment inside and outside of the group mentality....what ever fits you.

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Last edited by Matt V on Tue Nov 22, 16 11:14 pm; edited 1 time in total

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bwd

Since 04 Aug 2007
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PostTue Nov 22, 16 12:45 pm     Reply with quote

I'll keep the fire going.
I have no doubt volume plays a role in many ways.
It's not always the determinant in the scenario "can you complete the turn at speed of 3 knots" - but then again sometimes it is, a board with volume will sink slower than a no volume board, below a critical speed, and its shape provides lift and stability that can be helpful in giving an extra second to get the kite to start pulling again, or catch a little wave energy to keep you moving, etc.

I wrote a saga of a response to this thread but then my computer crashed, so I'll be slightly more brief.
I went to Portugal last month and kited and surfed in winds 10-20ish knots, and water flat lagoon to OH+ ocean.
Took 3 directional boards:
5'7" diy paipo, no volume.
5'x22" stubby diy quad low volume (~17L).
5'11" epoxy surfboard (Coil), convertible, 34L.
All 3 got use and I was glad to have them.
The paipo I brought in case of gnar and even added footstraps to it. Ended up only using it in super shallow lagoon because of durability more than anything else. I'm fond of it and its a reliable backup.
The stub I brought to not get skunked -also proved useful for exceptional upwind ability in a lagoon with a strong outgoing tide and wind and DOH+ outside waves. A death zone out there with a roostertail on the channel marker. The volume though slight makes it stiff and efficient while also stabilizing low speed turns, smoothly engaging chop (never "catching a rail") and giving the ability to run boxes for a big variety of widely available fins (futures in this case).
Why bring the surfboard to Portugal? 'cause it's Portugal! Cool Surfed every day, kited 1/3 of days. Kited in ocean with sideoff wind, bigger waves ( some OH+). Volume very nice for dropping in and feeling the wave, syncing up with slower inside waves, finessing chicken jibes, something to hang onto in a rip 1/2mile out if the wind dies, recovering when unable to keep up with a 4m swell in a lull outside, etc. No drawbacks to kiting a board with volume, due to fairly compact though conventional shape, and really light weight (~5lbs). Super responsive board for surfing and the right volume for my weight and skill (intermediate). Would have been worth it just to surf obviously, but nice to have one board in the bag do double duty.

I am convinced it's largely a myth that you need really low volume for kitesurfing -including airs. For good surfing, you need a board that is a GOOD surfboard, made by someone who knows what they are doing, lighter weight but strong, and sized to the rider (psst, volume is part of this).
Very few if any kite branded "kitesurfboards" fit this category imo. They are mainly heavy and the more volume, the heavier, feeding the boardorexic marketing chic.
Perhaps if you are at the pinnacle of world class kitesurfing you do need a tiny board. But that probably applies to 1%. On the other hand, skimboards, paipos, mutants twintips etc. are great for what they do, sometimes including kiting in waves. It's good to have a quiver with some variety, options.

Oh, btw, Portugal in fall Thumb's Up
winter waves with summer temps, great seafood, wine, wsl action, good vibes overall.


baleal. standing on 34L
 baleal. standing on 34L  IMG_6022 (3).png 

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eabmoto

Since 10 May 2012
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PostTue Nov 22, 16 3:14 pm     Reply with quote

The main reason you want volume in a surf board is to allow you to catch a wave by paddling into it. Surfing the wave doesn't require much volume at all. It's all personal preference but I also don't believe volume helps achieve anything in kiting unless you want to kite in conditions that require staying on your board at sub planning speeds for extended amounts of time. I don't consider a jibe or tack an extended amount of time.

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Matt V

Since 26 Oct 2014
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PostTue Nov 22, 16 3:37 pm     Reply with quote

bwd wrote:
I'll keep the fire going.
I have no doubt volume plays a role in many ways.
It's not always the determinant in the scenario "can you complete the turn at speed of 3 knots" - but then again sometimes it is, a board with volume will sink slower than a no volume board, below a critical speed, and its shape provides lift and stability that can be helpful in giving an extra second to get the kite to start pulling again, or catch a little wave energy to keep you moving, etc.


In order for the volume of any object to produce a buoyant force, it must be sunk. If you sink half of its volume, you will get half of it's liters of displacement to push up on you. If you sink the whole thing (completely under water) you will get a push equal to it's volume (minus its weight). But it is kind of bad to completely sink a board if you need to move it quickly. A sunk board also looses stability, and drag while immersed in water is orders of magnitude more than when it is mostly in air.

So for a 33l board and a 220lb rider (100kg) you will have 33kg of push up on a 100kg rider making that rider effectively weigh 66kg on a sunken board. That sounds good until you realize that that same footprint on a near zero displacement board will yield the same force on a 66kg rider on a board that is not sunk - they weigh the same and will need the same power from a kite to get going again. Except, the 66kg rider has the advantage of not starting from a sunken position. But before you jump all over me for admitting that a larger volume board does help, think about this.

How slow can you go when staying on top of the water with a twin-tip? I have estimated my slowest speed to be around 1/3rd to 1/6th of walking speed (3mph walking speed times 1/3rd is 1mph) on my 1" thick surfboard when I have enough power from the kite (just slightly overpowered, not excessively). I can go even slower on a wide tailed light wind TT. Looking down at my surfboard, some of the bottom is still not touching the water and no water is over the top of it. Thus even if it were 1/4" thick, the forward motion of the board would be enough to keep it on top of the water with me on it only going 1mph. Volume plays no part in the upward force until I sink.

And for transitions or jibes,

A board of 50liters sinks too fast to use on a 25knot day windsurfing. A twin-tip kiteboard board with near zero volume and much less area (footprint) than that 50liter windsurf board will stay up in 12 knots of wind through a 3 knot (waterspeed) transition.

Not convinced of how useless volume is? Do this experiment. Without a kite, jump on your 35 liter 6'3" surfboard in 2' of water and time how long it takes to sink to the bottom. Do the same on a zero volume twin-tip door light wind board. Avoiding the math including density of sea water, coefficient of friction, and Reynolds number, you come to this conclusion.

Either the no volume board or 35liter surfboard is going to sink quicker than you can get off of it to avoid it sinking to the bottom. That is 2ft sunk before you can do anything. At about 3' down in the water, you run into some serious stability issues with the unexpected buoyancy at your feet with a buoyant surfboard and the increasing buoyancy of your sunken legs and midsection. Think drysuit with all the air stuck in the legs. Funny thing about this, is that a no volume twin-tip is actually more stable as part of the system when attached to you when you are in a partially sunken vertical position. Personally, if I sink in the water (straps are necessary for this part) I want a lower volume board for stability and quickness to get back up riding. If the wind happens to die for some time, then I would rather my body be stable and my feet keep the board on them ready to go. This is easier when you have a low volume board.

bwd wrote:

I am convinced it's largely a myth that you need really low volume for kitesurfing -including airs. For good surfing, you need a board that is a GOOD surfboard, made by someone who knows what they are doing, lighter weight but strong, and sized to the rider (psst, volume is part of this).


Surfboard volume is most directly correlated to the energy of the wave a prone surfer is attempting to catch. Bigger waves (providing more energy) typically allow the use of smaller volume boards, while smaller waves (less energy) require more volume to make up for the energy not provided by the smaller waves. While thickness (volume) can have an effect on stiffness with thicker boards being stiffer, it does nothing for a rider once planing. Only the act of initiating the wave ride via reduction of drag on a prone paddler is can be attributed as a positive property of volume in surfing.

An experiment to prove this would be to imagine setting up a cable park over a surfing wave break. I am fairly confident that board volumes would drop precipitously until someone said that a rider was not a "real surfer" on that flat small board. But this experiment has already been done with kiteboarding as we are kind of a cable park in the waves.

My my stance is that most kitesurfers believe volume is doing something it is not physically capable of with respect to the low numbers we are talking about. This " high volume is good" position is a myth. Some kitesurfers believe and buy into this mentality even when the physics and experimentation disprove those popular opinions.

There is no debate that a high volume board will feel different. The debate is if that volume is necessary and beneficial with regards to the physics of riding. But yes, a higher volume board is a better lifevest than a lower one if you blow it.

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bwd

Since 04 Aug 2007
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PostTue Nov 22, 16 7:03 pm     Reply with quote

Quote:
Without a kite, jump on your 35 liter 6'3" surfboard in 2' of water and time how long it takes to sink to the bottom.

Don't have one, but my 34L board floats me to my middle ribs, about 2" below my sternum, and the board is about a foot below that, between my legs. Or paddling, my back is partly out of water, and board maybe 6" under the surface, except the nose of course. Sure, now and then you may rarely see a picture of a guy balanced on a surfboard submerged "all the way" but as noted this is not stable or useful.

However, add any forward motion to this and the hydrodynamics of a shape with volume make it more stable, and create more lift, and equally importantly, less drag. Aside from my experience, this is hydrodynamics, not hydrostatics and would apply equally to a theoretical heavy board with neutral bouyancy. More like a fin, wing or hydrofoil, less like a shingle.

You do a decent job discussing aspects of how no volume boards work, but not much to convince that volume is not sometimes useful, other than paddling.

But by the way, on the paddling subject, bigger wave surfboards tend to have more volume than regular boards, not less. The small wave options, long board or shortboard, tend to have more volume also, subject to design and style.
For ideal, powerful waves without a lot of current or wind, sure, the indo type board may be smaller vol than the daily west coast board (and definitely the east coast daily driver), but normaly IRL you want a few more liters for paddle power, as much to paddle out easier and dodge beatdowns, as to catch the wave, which is moving faster and often needs you to paddle faster. Length is as helpful as extra volume, if not more to catch faster waves. I am sure you guys see this at your drifty NW beachbreaks.

The way a round rail with some volume engages with chop or with turns on waves is also a huge factor into style and feel, plays into how you negotiate a wave, etc. I don't think its something one should discount, and it has an impact on how the sports are practiced. Some guys can talk to you all day about rail shapes and foil, and boards with different foils, volume distribution and/or rail shapes can ride really different, even if volume is the same or close to it, kite or no kite.

To theory of catching the wave by paddling easier with volume, sure to a point, but there are other factors. Remember that indonesia gun? Its volume may be a few liters more or less than the regular wave board, but the reason it can paddle faster in a sprint is that it is 7' or so instead of 5'10." Go even bigger, the boards they paddle in at nazare or jaws, or in big PNW waves, have plenty of volume and need it, but the 9-10'+ length is the key to give them the stability, speed and ability to stick air drops (hopefully). The extra volume, just a few liters, in a normal step up helps mostly by allowing the surfer to be less tired after paddling out, able to position for waves and sprint to catch them again, and again.

To me it seems obvious all the physical properties of a board affect its performance, and the interplay is not something that can be reduced or isolated so easily. Looking at all the different types of boards that work well, there are clearly lots of good solutions to the problems of kiting and surfing, including some that work equally well for both, and encourage transfer of useful skills, while potentially saving room in your quiver bag. And a low to no volume board slides in there pretty easy between a couple of boards with some volume.

I kind of wonder if there is some trolling, or merely no-volume zealotry, but I love thinking about boards so I keep writing, and say use whatever works for you, but if you haven't tried to really understand volume, by riding boards with volume, and different shapes, sizes etc, it's worth your while to do so, even if you go back to no volume after. I rode surfboards a lot, then almost exclusively rode the paipo for a couple of year, now riding surfboards more again, and applying things learned on the paipo, fun.

And by the way to the rider 220lbs, try a 38-42L board, you would be able to surf it and kite with it no problem. Like a 5'9" or 5'10 vader for example. But if it's LFT you would also break it...

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eabmoto

Since 10 May 2012
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PostTue Nov 22, 16 7:52 pm     Reply with quote

The original question can only be answered by trying a board with more volume and deciding whether you like it better or not. I was responding more to the idea that volume would offer you something more, other than feeling different. People paddle into and surf waves with all kinds of boards, very low volume, high volume and everything in between. Volume does, always, add surface area which always creates drag. That's the biggest problem with big wave long boards and why tow in boards are so much smaller, shorter, lower volume. There s a time and a place for all kinds of boards... it just depends on who's riding it.

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scottnorby

Since 23 Sep 2005
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PostTue Nov 22, 16 8:09 pm     Reply with quote

Gotta chime in.
I think this is a subject with a deep rabbit hole of variables....and just pure riding style to start.
I have been experimenting/riding on boards all under 5'6.
They are specific in their use.
I moved inland to the puget sound from the coast where I kited in waves on surfboards.
Learned on twin tips like most everyone but I started to kite because I was a surfer who wanted to get out to the waves and surf them.
So now I am riding a high volume short board strapless for mushy rolling wind swells.
I think the great lakes guys have a lot of this kind of mush windswell too. Ive communicated with a few who say they ride short high volume too. Because of the extreme low speed of actually surfing the wave with just the short interval wave energy.

IMHO most guys ride foils---thin boards, thin fins, fast, cut through chop. And they use those boards for air freestyle pops spins and punts. Some amazing shapes and the low volume makes for some real precision riding.

But I beileve if you want to really surf the wave you need to ride a board you would paddle surf also. Maybe a tad bit smaller due to not paddling....but there is a lot to gain with volume when at low speed "mush" surfing.
You are relying on the energy of the wave to propel you. And actually you are just timing your climb up the face of the wave so that you can RESET and drop again. The kite is not necessary and can almost remain nuetral. The drift in kites is making at all even more possible.

I remember people telling me people would never get barrelled on kites -- in 2005.
This all has a long way to go and there may be a few schools of 'surfkite thought'?

My point is that to surf a wave you need to be on a board which can almost come to a halt at the top of the wave ---and then turn and drop back in....gravity.

And the reality is that sometimes that is a much slower speed than powered by the kite.

Wind chop here in the puget sound is short interval bumps with small curves and even a couple 1 foot barrels. Its interesting to try and stitch waves together and turn on the face of one and drop into the wave in front of it. Then every so often a few bumps will line up and i will see a line that could be surfed without the kite.
Kite gets you there but then to just use the board--high volume for a mushy wave--to ride the windswell.

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bigjohn

Since 13 Mar 2012
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PostTue Nov 22, 16 9:58 pm     Reply with quote

To all you skinny guys answering this post I suggest putting a 50-100 lbs sack of weight on your back and then go out and try kitesurfing....

No really I don't actually suggest that, but try to imagine what it would be like to try to ride with one on your back.

Board width and volume do make a big difference in the ride for big guys.

It's all about getting into / staying on a plane. If the wind was smooth then small boards would be fine... Problem is, when lulls come, heavy guys sink... fast.

The smaller your board is the more you are working your kite to stay in a plane.

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eabmoto

Since 10 May 2012
106 Posts
seattle
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PostTue Nov 22, 16 10:41 pm     Reply with quote

I'm 220lbs. My experience has been that surface area has made a bigger difference then volume in light wind.

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Matt V

Since 26 Oct 2014
462 Posts
Summer- OR Coast, Winter - My van near good snow
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PostTue Nov 22, 16 11:01 pm     Reply with quote

bwd wrote:


However, add any forward motion to this and the hydrodynamics of a shape with volume make it more stable, and create more lift, and equally importantly, less drag. Aside from my experience, this is hydrodynamics, not hydrostatics and would apply equally to a theoretical heavy board with neutral bouyancy. More like a fin, wing or hydrofoil, less like a shingle.


Not to get too into that "sciency stuff", I can come up with many examples of how this is wrong including the ones you have given. Sub surface hydrodynamics such as a hydrofoil or a sub-surface vessel like a submarine, use either neutral buoyancy or negative buoyancy for underwater stability in flight (flying in the water of course).

A good example is to submerge your surfboard about 3' and then let it come up to the surface. You will notice it wobbles from side to side in a violently unstable manner. Man.....all the times I have took a hit from my board to the side, arm, or shins when I have vacuumed it to the bottom then got off of it.......all because of this effect of instability of a buoyant objects shaped like a surfboards....and me thinking it looks cool as it wobbles up me.


bwd wrote:



I kind of wonder if there is some trolling, or merely no-volume zealotry, but I love thinking about boards so I keep writing, and say use whatever works for you, but if you haven't tried to really understand volume, by riding boards with volume, and different shapes, sizes etc, it's worth your while to do so, even if you go back to no volume after. I rode surfboards a lot, then almost exclusively rode the paipo for a couple of year, now riding surfboards more again, and applying things learned on the paipo, fun.


Great point on just trying things. That is how I got to where I am now.....along with heaps of dumb, bad, good, or strange luck.

I make my best effort to avoid the coming across as trolling. And I do not wish to say my way is the best unless I can present a logical and reasonable argument. It is amazing to think of how many different configurations of kite and board all work in some manner or the other in our sport. But I feel that in this particular instance, a question citing volume as a consideration in choosing a new board deserves discussion as there are differing views on its importance.

And a great discussion has been had by those who have taken the time to write, for the record, their views at this moment in their journey. And thank you to those who have a differing opinion from mine and are willing to present evidence. I value those opposed to my views more highly than those who agree with me. I am trying to learn too.

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