Snowkite - Peter Lynn ACR users out there?

WindSki · Since 14 Dec 2012 402 Posts Portland Obsessed

Are there any Peter Lynn original ARC users out there? I have a quiver and was wondering about flying characteristics. Anyone out there ?

My question is as follows. I have modern Slingshot kits for the water but I travel and snowkiting logistics are better with ram kites . I'm trying to avoid spending money on new or newer snowkite. What are the disadvantage of these 15 year old ARC kites? Have not had them on snow yet. The great thing about them is I can get two and even three kites with my skis into one bag.

craz z · Since 01 Dec 2008 130 Posts Montana Stoked

There really isn't any logistical advantages of rams over tubes on snow.

Both kites pack down the same. both kites can be left with bar attached. setup is the same amount of time. (pumping is a good warmup from car to cold) Pumping insures no tangles which in some cases the wind can and will flip a ram into a bowtie, flipping a wingtip, not enough wind to inflate the kite and might require you to walk again maybe even 3 times back to the kite which is far more exhausting then pumping. not all the time but it certainly does happen. Also bar tangles can occur on either kite if the same exact packdown and setup is not followed exactly the same each and everytime.

If your unfamiliar with the ease of self launching a kite then possibly the rams might be better suited in your individual case. both kites have certain issues with bar setup and windspeed especially higher winds. The slingy bar is great for full flagout. Some ram bars limit the trailing edge by releasing the front lines this can be hazardous in high winds as pull is still a concern. Newer rams do this internally still stalling the rear of the kite which is supposed to kill the power much more effectively then using a brake handle to stall. Some tube bars with minifiths also have this issue only the opposite as the fronts are pulled harder then the rears. If done correctly with the slingy bar it will rest leading edge into the wind face down like it would prior to launching.

Your far more used to the SS kites I'd fly them on the snow.

If backup kite or quick downhill is the concern.
A pump is the only thing that would have to be brought along side a backup kite which you would need additional equipment anyway if you were not on ski's as deep snow with a snowboard would at the very least require snowshoes which are just as cumbersome and awkward to pack as a pump would be. Plus the slingy bags already have built in carriers for.

nipples are slowly being replaced by the quick inflate valve which some complaints of difficulty or breakage could occur (haven't seen it ever on my kites but cold can make you want to hurry things up and do silly things for some people.) With the new high inflation valves and the bad ass WMFG pump the kites nearly pump themselves up!

Most people like your self don't own double quivers and the performance issues and safety concerns of foils, I have personally experienced and witnessed years and years later forever steered me to tubes only. As well to most all the snowkiters except for the few that enjoy the ram kites.
(there used to be tons of rams on the snow now its a pretty niche market over the years. As most of us like to use the same kites year round.)

Its been awhile since seeing a PL arc and those that had them I believe carried around a leaf blower or some other contraption during lighter wind days to aide in inflation as it was one of or maybe even the first ever closed cell foil kite.(Be prepared for frustration and figuring out how to inflate that 15 year old kite!) I also remember them to be arched to more of a C-kite configuration, so it may be limited in depower capabilities.
I also remember once in flight they held their shape alot better then the other foils of that time period and foils after. (again ahead of its time and precursor to flysurfer with closed cells) The PL arc was less prone to trash bagging, bowtieing, and collapsing. Inflation was the only negative I saw. I would go through the safety mechanisms and update them or try them prior to your trip as your in a time period of bad safety records haha. Check out this oldie intro to the ARC https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Scy5haFPYnM
The Arc was originally designed for water and landboarding go rock it old school!

there is a demo day coming up if your interested in testing some modern foils to see if thats the route your interested in. https://www.facebook.com/groups/217930695017340/

Whichever kite you choose you will no doubt have a great time on the snow. Very Happy

WindSki · Since 14 Dec 2012 402 Posts Portland Obsessed

Thanks for the input !!
After reading your post I'll just use my SS for snow, keeping things simple. Anyone interested I'm putting the Peter Lynn kite on ebay this weekend !! Smile

Freeride Kiter · Since 08 Jul 2011 698 Posts Alaska / PNW / Baja Instructor

For everyday snowkiting I agree no real advantage - however on technical adventures, Chute climbs, elevation changes, or temperatures closer to 0 I take foil kites.

Matt V · Tue Nov 08, 16 6:38 pm

craz z pretty much nailed it, so not much to add......but....

My recommendation to kiters looking to do snow, is to stick with your inflatable kites that you use on the water if you have them. If water is your first choice and most used activity, then foils are pretty much worthless to you. Though, owning foils can save your inflatable kites lots of wear. But generally, it is just not worth it to have both if you are going to occasionally snowkite.

If you are snow obsessed like me, or, are beginning your kiting experience on the snow - go with a couple of foil kites, particularly in the larger sizes. At smaller sizes, your inflatables will not see as much use (not wear on the snow as much) and small inflatables benefit from their gust handling capabilities> if you have good gust handling small inflatables.

Keep in mind that the feel of inflatables varies as much as foils. Read that as "not all foils feel the same". I know of some team riders who swear that one particular "new" kite model was great, but then sold them to unsuspecting beginners at the end of the first season and went back to the same brand but an old standby model the following year. Actions speak louder than words. I have flown a popular brand (a 2013 model foil) that should have never been released to the public. It was the worst handling POS and dangerous on top of that. My older 2007 foils were safer and higher performing than that disaster.

Be careful on what you buy if you do go the foil kite route.

But I guess I do have a bit more to add on the advantage of foils. And that has to do with "displacement".

Definitions:
Nothing winds - 2-5mph - very little hope of making it upwind on snow (a skilled kiter can barely make the 4-5mph range work for upwind)
Light winds - 6-8mph - a skilled kiter can make it, with little effort, upwind.

HINT: if you walk at 3mph (human average), and you out pace the wind, you are in nothing winds.

The pressurized leading edge of an inflatable is like a lead weight, and weighs more than the air it displaces by a wide margin. This is great for bucking the gusts and turbulent winds, but not so good for keeping a kite up in a lull. The effect typically experienced by an inflatable kiter is that an inflatable will "Hindenburg" to the ground much easier in nothing winds and become unrecoverable a split second after it looses lift. This is because the leading edge has momentum that overcomes its drag. This is a good thing in turbulence, but not when the wind is so light that any slight overflight of the edge of the wind-window is an instant Hindenburg.

Foils can stay up in lighter wind. Some may try to argue that, but never have I seen someone keep up an inflatable in near zero wind like you can keep up a foil kite. While this may not mean much for general riding, it is beneficial when you hit that lasting 2mph lull. In that case, your foil kite stays off the ground, and your friends inflatable hits the ground....at least before your foil will. There can be no argument here (save experience vs inexperience) as I have witnessed inflatables hitting the ground while I (and others) could still keep a foil up in the air. Anyone wanting to challenge me is welcome if they will put money on it.

And while the foil kite could have more drag and/or total weight, it's displacement of its contained (and nearly un-pressurized air) keeps it up. Read that as "a foil kite almost floats in air". Since the air inside the foil is not pressurized, it does not weigh more than the air outside of it. Thus, no lead weight at the front to make it Hindenburg.

But when you add all the additional skills of "feeling" the different indicators and properties of a foil kite, it is still better to stick with your inflatables for the casual user.

Freeride Kiter · Since 08 Jul 2011 698 Posts Alaska / PNW / Baja Instructor

Matt!!

Are you going to be nomadic this winter? I'll be on the circuit like last year. Hope to meet up.

Dan

Matt V · Wed Nov 09, 16 5:36 am

Nope, I won't be nomadic at all. I am staying home in my van.......where ever it is parked near good snow.

See ya in Wyoming, Utah, Idaho, Montana, South Dakota, Minnesota, Nebraska, Iowa, or maybe even Kansas.....,Toto

Freeride Kiter · Since 08 Jul 2011 698 Posts Alaska / PNW / Baja Instructor

Well that van of yours is certainly from the camelus dromedarius family! The first leg of should be the Big Horns around the 30th. I'll touch base and see where you are then.

Matt V · Thu Nov 10, 16 7:00 am

Bighorns look like they have had a bit of snow already but is is melting. Hopefully, it gets hit again early.

Unfortunately, I will not be able to make an expensive trip like the Summit this year. My health insurance went up $1,590 for next year. I am pretty hosed on money. I have heard this is hitting lots of us on the lower end pretty hard. Maybe used kites will get cheaper, but I am not going to be taking any trips that have high lodging costs.

I am going have to be "park and ride" this year.

Freeride Kiter · Since 08 Jul 2011 698 Posts Alaska / PNW / Baja Instructor

If the snow is good I'm boondocking at the gate with trailer. You can park and ride there just fine, big lot right at the gate, people camp each year there instead of taking in the options at the lodge. - but.. you always know you best - have a great snowkite season.

Johnb · Since 02 Aug 2010 494 Posts Obsessed

Either of you guys going to the Ozone Demo on the 26?

Freeride Kiter · Since 08 Jul 2011 698 Posts Alaska / PNW / Baja Instructor

26th? I'm at work until the 29th. What month and where?

Johnb · Since 02 Aug 2010 494 Posts Obsessed

It supposed to be the 26th of this month in Montana.

Freeride Kiter · Since 08 Jul 2011 698 Posts Alaska / PNW / Baja Instructor

Oh man... I'm stuck here in Deadhorse until the 29th.

proletariat · Since 22 Feb 2013 102 Posts Denver, CO Stoked

I used Arcs for 3 years (snow, land, buggy) before switching to LEIs. I use inflateables now but I kinda wish I had kept my 15m Phantom or Venom for occasional snow use. More as a novelty than anything else, though. Our wind sucks so bad here that the Arcs are insanely infuriating.

Other than the Flysurfer speed 3 & 4, I have not since found a smoother, floaty kite with autozenith and tons of grunt. The autozenith thing was really great, even though it sounds gimicky. I once had a 20m long conversation with a dude on a beach with my kite just sitting here like an obedient dog waiting for a command. In short, if our wind was smoother, I'd still be flying Arcs on both water and land/snow.

The trade-off, though, is the ridiculous setup, the infuriating tendency to wrap into a fucking shoelace at the slightest wind change, and lack of structure in gusts. They munch gusts great, but any sort of lulls or direction change with gusts just tie those things into knots. I've got some videos I can post that illustrates my point.

They're awesome, but not worth the trouble (unless you have super smooth wind).

Nak · Tue Nov 15, 16 11:47 am

Freeride Kiter · Since 08 Jul 2011 698 Posts Alaska / PNW / Baja Instructor