Gamechanger ?

eabmoto · Since 10 May 2012 107 Posts seattle Stoked

Adjust the length of whatever you connect to. BRM did it right... a while ago. Then the user can decide. Short arms can benefit greatly by bringing the bar closer.

ldhr · Since 21 Jul 2009 1471 Posts Hood River XTreme Poster

eabmoto · Since 10 May 2012 107 Posts seattle Stoked

Making your back lines longer then your front lines takes away a bunch of potential power that you might want from your kite. I'd much rather keep the full range of my kite at all times. Yes bringing the fully sheeted in position of your bar too far could be awkward but most people would benefit from the ability to get it closer, mostly because of the de-power (sheeting out) that would then be accessible. Short arms and long.

Sella · Thu Aug 25, 16 11:07 am

I love innovation but what I cannot get my head around with the click bar is the end benefit?? I'm definitely going to demo one as I consider myself your typical gorge kiter: Old white guy with average board skills but above average kite skills, due to constantly changing wind. I ride with 40 other guys/gals daily and our claim to fame is we suck.....but we can blindly thread the needle with our kites all day long in gusty conditions and still ride smoothly. My hands constantly micro tune the kite to gain maximum efficiency as everything else ( feet, board, arms, wrists, hips) depends on the feel of the kite I'm receiving through my fingers. The timing is very precise and when done correctly and preemptively when you're "reading" the wave/swell/chop ahead you can make anything smooth. However, it happens very fast and you're constantly tweaking the kite to stay in the power range so power delivery becomes synced with your board. For me, the Click Bar concept hits the bullseye of the most important feedback I receive while kiting; back line tension, via the throw of the bar. A kiters holy grail of control. (My front line trim is set and forget)

If a Click Bar is sheeted in......you push your depower button to free ride the wave the kite dumps power but when you do sheet out does all the power dump out the back giving you sloppy rear lines? The bar seems like it would create broader peaks and valleys of power delivery and since my right hand is usually behind me when I ride I would have to reach up and wind the rear lines in to gain that powered trim back when I could have just easily sheeted in my bar with my left hand as I exit the wave. I just don't see how taking your right hand to wind tensioned, or loose, rear lines back into your bar is going to be a smooth or enjoyable experience on the water when the end benefit is a few inches of sheeting in and out?

North firmly believes in the bar while their marketing is pushing the hype aggressively. North pro rider quotes state it's like riding a bike, shifting gears, playing a video game etc and they cannot imagine riding without it. I truly hope it's revolutionary for simpler gust control and not gimmicky. Time will tell if their game changing words are true or they are just bowing down to the man to pay for the 5 years of R&D.

user124 · Since 02 Aug 2012 390 Posts Portland Obsessed

knotwindy · Since 25 Sep 2011 598 Posts Addicted

snowycreek · Since 01 Dec 2009 38 Posts Hood River

eabmoto clearly understands the relationship between available throw, line length and bar position. I ride with 38 inches of throw and require no trim. All of the depower available within the kite's range is well within arm's reach. Slack back lines are at around 28" and back-stall is close to the spreader bar. I just let go of my bar for max de-power

When we kite, we are constantly moving our bar in and out. This whole thing about trim to place your hand in this supposedly perfect position? What is it 12 inches from your belly button? Really, it does not matter to me if I have my hand 8 inches OR 18 inches from my body. And, before riding trimless, I was one of you who believed that I needed trim. With enough sheeting it is only a complexity that is not needed.

On the other hand, I know that some will never accept the trim free approach and to that I say, I like the rear line trim approach that North is bringing to the market. Too bad it cost three or four times what my bar does.

SpaceRacer · Since 04 Nov 2007 434 Posts Obsessed

I'm a North rider and I'm just excited about the option of filling the bar with peppercorns and taking it with me to dinner.

kitezilla · Since 22 Jun 2006 453 Posts gorge Obsessed

Great comments on a very interesting subject. The use of "back-stall" and its inclusion in kite design is something to consider, along with all the other factors related to kiting.

Peppercorn option... Laughing

Airport Security Report: "When the robot pushed the button, it just went 'click' and some dark substance was expressed from the other end"

eric · Since 13 Jan 2006 1803 Posts XTreme Poster

<<I'm a North rider and I'm just excited about the option of filling the bar with peppercorns and taking it with me to dinner.>>

Made my day!

Matt V · Fri Aug 26, 16 12:10 pm

I cannot use a “Long throw” depower line as some do. This is due my use of smaller kites and the downloop jibe that those smaller kites necessitate. When I need to “hands off quick spin” my bar to untwist lines, my kite is typically extremely low to the water. With my foot switch occurring as the board is at a 45° angle while banking out of the jibe, my bar is closer to my knees than my shoulders. If I had a longer bar throw than about 23”-26”, the bar would be out of reach for at that instant, no matter how long my arms were. Though there are many style/timing changes that would allow me to use a longer throw, I prefer the access to the “hands off quick spin” that can easily get 2-3 line twists out of my bar in an instant. So a conventional depower adjustment is what I need to ride the way I do.

Now on to backstall………. (good backstall to me is lots of backstall and easy recovery at any time of my choice from that backstall)

Backstall is something that has been out of reach or swept under the rug by easier and easier kites available for beginners to start out, and progress on. Many kites that have been designed to not backstall still retain some accessible backstall properties. And a few older derelict designs had catastrophic backstall which was nearly impossible to exploit to an advantage by even highly skilled riders.

If you started out on open cell foil kites (closed cell can have good backstall properties too), you may have had a kite that immediately indicated that the flow over the top of the canopy was detached. This is typically noticed by the kiter as a near sudden decrease in line tension (kite power). If not corrected by sheeting the bar out immediately, the kite will then begin to reverse in the window. On an open cell foil kite, the visiual indication of this is that the cells “loose air” and the bottom of the kite shows looseness in the fabric. I personally own a 3m 4line depower open cell foil kite that is of one of those derelict designs - AND IT IS THE BEST KITE EVER FOR TEACHING BACKSTALL!!!!!! – with regards to properties and how to exploit the backstall, along with how to avoid and or correct it.

Most riders that started after 2010 or who have never had open cell foil kite experience, are in the dark about how to sheet their kite properly for maximum power, drift, depower, stalled depower, and placement in the window. While this is too complicated a topic to be taught via a forum post, the following diagram shows how I prefer to set my trim on my depower throw at approximately 23” of total bar travel.

"H" = high wind
"M" = medium wind
"L" = light wind
Note: Kites stall off of apparent wind which can change with sailing angle and possible speed at a particular point in the windwindow.

bigjohn · Since 13 Mar 2012 663 Posts Addicted

eabmoto · Since 10 May 2012 107 Posts seattle Stoked

Hey Matt, this is Eric! Remember the Eric that kited with you during the best session of your life... and mine, last weekend?

eabmoto · Since 10 May 2012 107 Posts seattle Stoked

Oh yeah, my contention is that if your chicken loop was gone, or half the length that it is now, you'd be able to reach your bar after letting go for the spin... Maybe, maybe not.

Matt V · Fri Aug 26, 16 2:09 pm

Stick figure theater!

Hope this diagram helps.

And I guess the point is that a long throw is not really necessary if you have a working trim adjustment to give you access to all of the spots labled on the diagram. If shorten the front lines via trim adjustment, then you could loose access to the backstall points on the bar. If you lengthen the front lines, then you loose access to some of the depower and the light wind backstall recovery points. And even with a long throw, if it is not balanced, you could have line lengths that do not allow access to the lower (backstall portions). This is easy to remedy via pigtails.

Given that I use a seat harness, having to hold the bar closer in down at my waist seems pretty uncomfortable. But I do not have experience with that enough to decide until I try it.

bigjohn · Since 13 Mar 2012 663 Posts Addicted

Stick figures help... Thanks.

I think I understand your point better now. If I was to spin my bar that close to the water my kite would fall into the water (which is likely part of your point). The slack that occurs with a long throw would stall the kite enough to sink her into the drink while the bar was spinning.

As previously stated.. give and take... there is no single perfect solution for all situations.

On a completely side subject.
I find it easier to switch my feet when I have upward tension on my lines (thus no down force on the board). i.e. I want to be light on my board while switching my feet. Thus my jibe would take place after spinning the bar and upon edging the board back upwind.