 |
|
|
previous topic :: next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Matt V
Since 26 Oct 2014
462 Posts
Summer- OR Coast, Winter - My van near good snow
Explosive Diarrhea
|
 Thu Jun 09, 16 6:09 am |
 |
|
In response to dhhr's post -
Double face palm moment for me. I feel stupid for hoping that there would not be one of those here. It has to be like a new "Goodwin's Law", only for environmentalists. Post "reason and logic" and out the woodwork they will come.
I could put up tons of examples of beaches that have been kite banned on one incident or even non-incident environmental concerns and knee jerk reactions. There are lots of incidents where innocent bystanders were taken out by kite lines of experienced or non-experienced kiters. Then you have to think about the tiny impact wind sports have to the local economy at these banned areas, vs, the huge economic impact of US industrial oil production given that it powers our......well....everything from home heating to getting to the destination to actually go kite. Banning kiters will have virtually no impact on any percentage of the total population vs banning oil transport via rail. When you weigh it out, kiting is not the same as oil transport, but rather kiting is less important to the population than energy. With a knee jerk mentality, kiters are the first to go as the impact on non kiters is virtually zero.
Rail transport is dangerous and likely not the best way for environmentally disastrous materials to be transported.
Pipeline transport is worse when there is no liability placed on the pipeline owner/operator as in the Keystone XL. Look it up. They bear nearly none of the environmental cost of the accidents that will occur.
Pipeline transport is the safest means (in most areas) of moving oil if you make sure that that owner/operator is fully liable and insured against environmental disasters. Sometimes this even kills the pipeline projects because no one will insure them, just like in nuclear power plants.
The point is that nut job environmentalist want to ban all human activities for which there is any effect on this earth. As a kiting community, I hope we are not grouped into that population that is logically provable to be self-annihilating blithering idiots. Please watch for instances when your emotions override reason and logic. Honestly, I believe that this may be the very "Great Filter" that humanity is looking down the barrel of right now. Smarts don't likely out do stupids when there's enough stupids. And stupids tend to die off in one big lot at a time.
I gotta be done with this one as I only have 2 palms with which to "face palm". Given that I went for that right of way, I am out of ammo. I know the type of wack-jobs are out there to ride this one into the ground of stupidity. I just cannot participate. I have said what I needed to. Good luck to all involved.
_________________
MSN has temporarily removed commenting on our websites while we explore better ways for you to engage in discussion on the issues you care about. |
|
|
dhhr
Since 09 Jul 2015
28 Posts
Hood River
|
| Thu Jun 09, 16 10:00 am |
|
|
| Quote: | | I hope we are not grouped into that population that is logically provable to be self-annihilating blithering idiots. Please watch for instances when your emotions override reason and logic. |
Really? Thanks for that judicious advice.
It's not illogical or overly emotional for the Mayor of Mosier to ask the governor for a moratorium on oil transport until an investigation has determined the cause of the accident, and changes have been made to insure that whatever caused this incident cannot happen again. Perfectly reasonable. Common Sense.
Do you think the people of Mosier are emotional blithering idiots because their concerned about more oil trains passing through the wreckage of de-railed leaking oil trains without even knowing what caused the accident in the first place?
Whatever issues you have with environmentalists, that's not my argument or concern - I think it's irrelevant.
My point is that I don't think questioning the wisdom and methods (given the history in recent years) of oil transport by rail makes us self-annihiliating blithering emotional idiots. It just makes us people concerned about keeping recreational opportunities on the Columbia River, not to mention our livelihoods. |
|
|
ShiverMeTimbers
Since 26 Feb 2013
381 Posts
Gig Harbor
Obsessed
|
| Thu Jun 09, 16 10:09 am |
|
|
| I think you need to redefine "environmentalist." Its inaccurate and unfair to box them all together. Exclusionist types are not the same as organic-food lovers. |
|
|
bigjohn
Since 13 Mar 2012
663 Posts
Addicted
|
| Thu Jun 09, 16 7:13 pm |
|
|
I think it is important to remember that beyond being a philosophical discussion about trains and oil that this is also a local issue.
The people of Mosier experienced a traumatic experience. Their houses were (are?) at risk, their children were (are?) at risk.
I believe they have the right to question whether proper safety measures are in place to assure this won't happen again.
Nobody is going to change their opinions regarding oil, trains, safety, global warming or any other large scale political issue just by reading a couple of opinions on NWKite, but the residents of Mosier who were evacuated from their homes, required to boil their water before drinking, had their children evacuated from school, asked not to use the sewer system, and lost access to their local beach were actually quite lucky compared to some other towns that experienced oil train derailments.
Nobody died in Mosier!!!
I know if a train derailment occurred in front of my house that I would want safety concerns thoroughly addressed before additional trains were allowed to come through.
Which ever way you lean politically, if you take your political opinions out of the equation it still makes sense that the people of Mosier have a right to a safe environment in their neighborhood.
This is not a case of a plover raising it's heartbeat when someone walks by, rather concern regarding whether the root problem of the train accident has not been properly identified and addressed.
Safety first in both kiting as well as railroading!
_________________
Kiting starts at 40MPH |
|
|
dhhr
Since 09 Jul 2015
28 Posts
Hood River
|
| Fri Jun 10, 16 7:51 am |
|
|
bigjohn, ShiverMeTimbers: I agree 100%
I'm not sure if the root problem if the Mosier derailment has been addressed - I think it's lucky that only 4 cars caught fire and an additional 4 cars were leaking out of a total of 16 cars that derailed. I think it could also have been much worse with a strong west wind which is a more likely weather scenario - definitely something to consider regarding future oil transport through the Columbia Gorge. |
|
|
cgka
Since 18 Jul 2006
278 Posts
Obsessed
|
| Fri Jun 10, 16 9:48 am |
|
|
One of the toughest challenges everyone faces in dealing with the Railroads, is the fact that they have had tracks along the Columbia since before the state was incorporated, therefore they have separate legal parameters that both protect and isolate them from standard legal guidelines established and enforced by the state gov. .
As a kiting association, we have had dealings with them, both some good, some challenging. We learned that their ultimate long term goals are to eventually establish double lane tracks on both sides of the river extending the entire length of the River out into eastern WA/OR.
They are aware of the eventuality of their being a strong source of goods transportation as fuel prices increase and other modes of transport costs increase.
Their longterm goals are pretty established and anything that may pose a threat or challenge, they are fairly well prepared to mitigate and move past, by one way or another.
I do not think that their backing down in any way is in their plans.
Sorry, not meaning to get off topic, but just wanted to share some information from our experiences with the railroads.
_________________
[b:13763ca0d3]The CGKA is your advocate for Kiteboarding in the Gorge! [i:13763ca0d3] Join now: [/i:13763ca0d3]GorgeKiter.com/join[/b:13763ca0d3] |
|
|
user124
Since 02 Aug 2012
390 Posts
Portland
Obsessed
|
| Fri Jun 10, 16 10:26 am |
|
|
| cgka wrote: | One of the toughest challenges everyone faces in dealing with the Railroads, is the fact that they have had tracks along the Columbia since before the state was incorporated, therefore they have separate legal parameters that both protect and isolate them from standard legal guidelines established and enforced by the state gov. .
As a kiting association, we have had dealings with them, both some good, some challenging. We learned that their ultimate long term goals are to eventually establish double lane tracks on both sides of the river extending the entire length of the River out into eastern WA/OR.
They are aware of the eventuality of their being a strong source of goods transportation as fuel prices increase and other modes of transport costs increase.
Their longterm goals are pretty established and anything that may pose a threat or challenge, they are fairly well prepared to mitigate and move past, by one way or another.
I do not think that their backing down in any way is in their plans.
Sorry, not meaning to get off topic, but just wanted to share some information from our experiences with the railroads. |
This is actually such a huge point to recognize. The railroad has a lot of power and the only way to address this is at a federal level. It's good to see national press coverage of this episode and attention from out governor and senators after the Mosier incident. But we need to keep the pressure on and continue to have a national conversation about how to manage energy resources and make our concerns about environmental impact known. Really no different that discussions about offshore drilling, keystone xl, management of nuclear waste, burning coal for electricity etc. |
|
|
SalmonSlayer
Since 27 Nov 2005
648 Posts
Addicted
CGKA Member
|
| Mon Jun 13, 16 8:18 am |
|
|
Perhaps Kite boarders could commit to stop burning fossil fuels driving hours to find wind. Also, commit to not traveling by air to kiting vacations.
If you dont want environmentally dangerous oil transport, whether it is in your own back yard or not, why not walk the talk? If you can't set an example and practice what you preach, why would anyone put any weight on what you say? |
|
|
user124
Since 02 Aug 2012
390 Posts
Portland
Obsessed
|
| Mon Jun 13, 16 10:18 am |
|
|
| SalmonSlayer wrote: | Perhaps Kite boarders could commit to stop burning fossil fuels driving hours to find wind. Also, commit to not traveling by air to kiting vacations.
If you dont want environmentally dangerous oil transport, whether it is in your own back yard or not, why not walk the talk? If you can't set an example and practice what you preach, why would anyone put any weight on what you say? |
Agreed we are all part of the problem, and I support trying to be individually environmentally conscious and try and reduce fossil fuels. But even if all kiters agreed to fly hemp-woven kites and only chase wind using bicycle power it would make no difference and policy makers do not care if you drive an hour to chase wind or fly to take a kite vacation. Severe personal restriction of use of resources is sort of like trying to address overpopulation by killing yourself.
These are policy issues that need to be collectively addressed at a national level. We need support of alternative energies and regulations/tax policies that takes into account the health and environmental cost of fossil fuels. It would be enormously unpopular, but gas should be a lot more expensive as it is in Europe. And overpopulation needs to be addressed by empowering women and making birth control available, especially in third world countries. |
|
|
dhhr
Since 09 Jul 2015
28 Posts
Hood River
|
| Mon Jun 13, 16 12:19 pm |
|
|
| Quote: | | These are policy issues that need to be collectively addressed at a national level. We need support of alternative energies and regulations/tax policies that takes into account the health and environmental cost of fossil fuels. |
Totally agree - regardless of how much gas we decide to use chasing wind or flying to kite destinations, it's worth taking a look at the current situation and safety standards of oil by rail transport.
The oil being shipped through the gorge from Bakken oil fields of North Dakota is a highly flammable oil that's more like gasoline and natural gas liquids suspended in oil when it comes out of the ground. If those natural gasses make it into the rail cars it results in a blanket of propane sitting in top of liquid oil settling during transport. If there's a breach in the rail car, with air leaking in and a spark it will cause an enormous explosion and it'll act like a blow torch on another railcar that didn't rupture, and so on.
When they first started transporting it, older DOT-111 cars were used, that were originally designed in the '60's for corn syrup, and inadequate for oil by rail transportation. The DOT requires safer standards for all new cars. According to an article in the Spokane Spokesman Review, "older cars must be brought up to the new standards according to a schedule the DOT established: The deadlines range from 2018 for certain DOT-111 cars to 2025 for certain CPC-1232 cars.....a blogger for the Benicia Independent – a website that tracks the rail industry – reported that the AAR estimates 225 tanker cars have been retrofitted to the new standards, out of an estimated 110,000 that will need it."
http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2016/jun/09/shawn-vestal-safety-upgrades-for-rail-tank-cars-co/
Currently oil pipleline companies are required to have response plans, but the railroad companies are not required to. At the very least, communities in the line of oil transport by rail should be provided with one, and assurances that all cars are up to date and as safe as possible.
http://www.eenews.net/stories/1059998222 |
|
|
macgruber
Since 06 Dec 2011
490 Posts
SE PDX volcano
Obsessed
|
| Mon Jun 13, 16 9:03 pm Rock Creek |
|
|
| Saw a windsurfer and two kites right off of Rock Creek on my way back from Rowena today. Is it reopened? |
|
|
SalmonSlayer
Since 27 Nov 2005
648 Posts
Addicted
CGKA Member
|
| Mon Jun 13, 16 10:00 pm |
|
|
| user124 wrote: |
These are policy issues that need to be collectively addressed at a national level. We need support of alternative energies and regulations/tax policies that takes into account the health and environmental cost of fossil fuels. It would be enormously unpopular, but gas should be a lot more expensive as it is in Europe. And overpopulation needs to be addressed by empowering women and making birth control available, especially in third world countries. |
Why not? Higher energy prices mostly affect the poor. The right thing to do is act on your convictions. Try just living within the average carbon footprint of the average human being on earth? You can to it if you really believe there is an imminent problem
The moral thing to do is live up to your own beliefs before you suggest forcing them on others.
Kite boarders in general consider themselves to be environmentalist, but have no problem burning all kinds of fossil fuels pursuing their completely unnecessary activities in their privileged lives. Then many have the audacity want to force their beliefs on others without committing to them in your own lives.
You want everyone to adjust their lives with policies that WILL affect our economy and especially the lives of the poor? You do it first! Be a leader instead of a bleater. All you are doing is pontificating and spewing self-congratulatory ideas while patting yourself on the back.
My apologies in advance if I have misread you and you ride a bike to go kite boarding and practice what you preach. My guess is that you have no problem driving all over the gorge, to the coast or fly to far flung locations to pursue your passions. I have no problem with it, but I dont live under the illusion that I don't act in my self-interest like 99% of kite boarders. So go ahead and suck up that petroleum, but you ain't walking the BS you spew.
My mother is 84 and walks everywhere. She refuses to drive. She is committed to a small carbon foot print. She recycles her bath water and will not use her clothes dryer because it burns energy. People often mistake her for being homeless because she pushes her personal shopping cart to the grocery store. I suspect this is also because she will pick up aluminum cans on her journey. She walks the talk. You guys are all hot air. A true AGW source.
It always comes back to what other people should do instead if living up to your own convictions. There is always a justification or is it a complete lack of consciousness that allows people to push their beliefs on others but not act on these beliefs themselves?
If you don't like oil trains, stop doing things that make them necessary.
Ok, I am done repeating the same point in different way. I am out of this one. |
|
|
eric
Since 13 Jan 2006
1804 Posts
XTreme Poster
|
| Mon Jun 13, 16 10:04 pm |
|
|
^^^
Without saying anyone else is wrong, Salmonslayer is 100% right.
Eric |
|
|
HRnico
Since 22 Mar 2008
261 Posts
Da Hood
Obsessed
|
| Tue Jun 14, 16 5:03 am |
|
|
^+++
_________________
CGKA Member |
|
|
Occupied Columbia
Since 12 Nov 2011
376 Posts
Columbia City
Obsessed
|
| Tue Jun 14, 16 5:24 am |
|
|
And people who have windows in there homes should just accept arsenic and heavy metals released into the air they breath without any oversight.
Using oil vs transporting oil safely???
Last edited by Occupied Columbia on Tue Jun 14, 16 8:36 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
|
dhhr
Since 09 Jul 2015
28 Posts
Hood River
|
| Tue Jun 14, 16 7:43 am |
|
|
If I drive my car to the local kite beach, that disqualifies me from asking Burlington Northern to upgrade a railcar transporting volatile crude through my town in a tank made in 1960s designed to transport corn syrup?
How is asking rail companies to provide tangible and realistic emergency response plans for towns next to railroads forcing environmental beliefs on others?
Flying to a kite destination means that we can't ask the Federal Railroad Administration to force the railroads to have an oil spill prevention and response plan in place for local fire responders, who usually arrive at the inevitable disaster before the railroads hazardous materials crews? |
|
|
user124
Since 02 Aug 2012
390 Posts
Portland
Obsessed
|
| Tue Jun 14, 16 9:33 am |
|
|
Salmonslayer, I genuinely congratulate you and your mother on your efforts. It sounds as though you truly "walk the talk". But individual conservation efforts make very little difference in the big picture. The problem is not your personal carbon footprint, but individual carbon footprints multiplied by billions of people.
99% of the country (and the world) does not care about their individual carbon footprint beyond how it may affect their personal economic situation , which is why we have such a problem. Try spending a little time outside of places like Hood River or Eugene. Visit the mid-west, or the south and you'll see what I mean. Everyone drives big trucks, no one recycles, fracking is celebrated as an economic boon, climate change is seen as a myth/ conspiracy.
I'm sure it makes you feel good to live in your bubble, surrounded by a bunch of like-minded people that pat you on the back and share tips on composting. But realize unless you are also advocating for reasonable, collective, national, policy based solutions then you are not really helping. You are essentially just feeling good about yourself as you use less resources so that others can use more. Castigating others as immoral because they are concerned about environmental impact but don't live as "green" as you think they should just makes most people label you as a smug, crazy hippy and may even further galvanize them to care less about environmental issues. |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You can attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum
|
|
