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OT: disposing of plastics
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SalmonSlayer

Since 27 Nov 2005
646 Posts

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PostThu Nov 14, 19 11:36 pm     Reply with quote

user124 wrote:


I get that you are personally offended by this perceived hypocrisy. .


I am not offended at all by by people not walking the talk. I am just pointing it out.

I believe leading by example will get people to listen. Who would listen to someone telling people the end is near, but not acting like the end is near?

user124 wrote:
Most people don't want to make the sacrifice unless everyone else does the same


This suggest we must force people to do something via the heavy hand of government.. That is not personal sacrifice. This is people saying " I have a belief, but I am not gong to act on that belief unless I can force everyone else to do the same"

If you want change, live the change you want. If you are right, others will follow.

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wylieflyote

Since 30 Jun 2006
1435 Posts
Puget Sound & Wa. Coast
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PostFri Nov 15, 19 8:05 am     Reply with quote

Paul, Be realistic please. In your hypothetical world... I'm here sitting here alone in the dark, furnace set at 62 degrees, reading a book by candlelight..... While I listen to my neighbor firing up his Humvee and loading his 5 (carbon footprint) children & wife for a cross-country RV trip?

Sometimes government can provide it's citizenry with standards, and not always be heavy handed. Maybe my neighbor should pay some CAFE or something to even this suffering out. Otherwise why would I save the planet for no good reason if he's marauding and laying waste the land?

Apparently you think this will all work out by some awareness and good will.

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Kip Wylie

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SalmonSlayer

Since 27 Nov 2005
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PostFri Nov 15, 19 8:32 am     Reply with quote

wylieflyote wrote:

Apparently you think this will all work out by some awareness and good will.




We can ask ourselves "Do we have an environmental crisis or not?" or " Are eco systems collapsing?" as has been asserted in a recent UN meeting. If the answer is yes, then why aren't these same people acting like there is a crisis on a personal level? When I say acting like there is a crisis, I mean making substantive personal sacrifice by eliminating elective activities. No you don't have to sit in a corner burning a candle. These are activities mostly enjoyed by 1%ers (us). Is it really that hard to distinguish between elective activities and necessities?

What I mostly see is people virtue signalling or getting behind symbolic agendas such as banning plastic straws.

It amazes me that this even needs to be pointed out. So much resistance to walking the talk.

Again
Just ask yourself next time you want to to do anything that is unnecessary for your basic survival, "What is more important, the environment or my desire to purchase this item or service that is completely unnecessary for my survival". Your actions will tell more about what you think of this issue than words typed on a forum.

The emperors not wearing any clothes.

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wylieflyote

Since 30 Jun 2006
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Puget Sound & Wa. Coast
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PostFri Nov 15, 19 8:49 am     Reply with quote

Sorry, but a warm breezy beach IS necessary for my survival. I worked for 40+ years with the soul focus of building a good decade of "Golden Years"

On the plane to MX in the morning.

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Kip Wylie

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pollywog

Since 07 Aug 2009
229 Posts
Columbia City
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PostFri Nov 15, 19 9:56 am     Reply with quote

I’ll admit it.. I’m a hypocrite. I don’t think much about my consumptive patterns. I ride my bike to work everyday but I’m not doing it for the environment. I do it for me. I live in a tiny home not for the environment but because “stuff” makes my life more complicated. I could say...hey look at me, I do this and that, aren’t I blah-blah? Nope don’t really care (although I did just seemingly do some virtue signaling but as a point). I’m a first world citizen in the largest consumer based economy in the world. I’m fully in. Is it a bummer about plastics, yes. Are plastics great, yes. I’m I going to stop eating razor clams because of it, nope. Not until scientists say it’s not safe.

I care about the environment and do basic stuff to leave it in as good of shape as I can. Honestly, I’m not concerned about global warming. It’s happened many times and the earth is a dynamic equilibrium. Many species have gone extinct and it had zero to do with humans. Do I care about animals, sure. I’ve got plenty of critters. I think there’s very little we’ll be able to do to change global warming. We can’t even get enough food to the global population, let alone clean water...I highly doubt we’ll be able shift the climate. Sure, I care about life but mostly mine and my families. I think I’m like a lot of people.

Live and let live. Enjoy what’s you’ve got and be thankful to live in a first world country. If you feel good doing stuff direct towards the environment, cool.

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user124

Since 02 Aug 2012
295 Posts
Portland
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PostFri Nov 15, 19 11:03 am     Reply with quote

SalmonSlayer wrote:
wylieflyote wrote:

Apparently you think this will all work out by some awareness and good will.




We can ask ourselves "Do we have an environmental crisis or not?" or " Are eco systems collapsing?" as has been asserted in a recent UN meeting. If the answer is yes, then why aren't these same people acting like there is a crisis on a personal level? When I say acting like there is a crisis, I mean making substantive personal sacrifice by eliminating elective activities. No you don't have to sit in a corner burning a candle. These are activities mostly enjoyed by 1%ers (us). Is it really that hard to distinguish between elective activities and necessities?

What I mostly see is people virtue signalling or getting behind symbolic agendas such as banning plastic straws.

It amazes me that this even needs to be pointed out. So much resistance to walking the talk.

Again
Just ask yourself next time you want to to do anything that is unnecessary for your basic survival, "What is more important, the environment or my desire to purchase this item or service that is completely unnecessary for my survival". Your actions will tell more about what you think of this issue than words typed on a forum.

The emperors not wearing any clothes.


I'm really struggling to understand what your point is here. Like you, I applaud and encourage anyone who wants to make better personal decisions to reduce their environmental footprint. But I think we can all agree that Kip sitting in his basement reading by candlelight has little impact on what his neighbors do, and zero impact on the ecologic mindset of some dude in Bangladesh struggling to feed his family on $2/day.

So are you trying to say that because people that voice concern about impending ecologic crisis don't "walk the walk", this is some kind of evidence that there isn't really a problem?

Human nature is that even when they are informed and care, people frequently don't do what is in their best interest. 20% of the world smokes cigarettes despite overwhelming evidence of direct harm to personal health! And when we live on a planet with 7 billion people where environmental impact from human behavior takes decades to manifest, it's not at all surprising most people will make their personal environmental footprint a low priority.

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SalmonSlayer

Since 27 Nov 2005
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PostFri Nov 15, 19 12:40 pm     Reply with quote

SalmonSlayer wrote:
So are you trying to say that because people that voice concern about impending ecologic crisis don't "walk the walk", this is some kind of evidence that there isn't really a problem?


Nowhere did I say their was no eco problem. Let me try one more time.

We have people in this discussion and elsewhere expressing deep concern for the environment, yet they are engaging in the exact activities that are the cause of what they are complaining about. Before we ask one person on the economic margins to change a thing, us 1%ers (approx 34k income annually) should set an example, but you see almost zero personal sacrifice by eliminating elective activities. Al Gore is an extreme example that illustrates the point. It is about forcing A'ls agenda on everyone, including those in the greatest energy poverty, via the heavy hand of government. I would never ask someone to do something that I would not do myself first and lead by example. There have been plenty of time I have given a crew jobs. I always took the worst one. THAT is how you get people to listen, respect you and pay attention to your lead. I dont see Al Gore even breaking his private air travel habits. The fact that I even need to explain leading by example should be a default action if you want others to listen and then receiving objections and resistance is telling of where our culture is today.


user124 wrote:
Human nature is that even when they are informed and care, people frequently don't do what is in their best interest. 20% of the world smokes cigarettes despite overwhelming evidence of direct harm to personal health!



It is not up to you or me to decide what is someone's best interest. We all do things that may affect our health negatively, but we make our own value judgements to engage in them or not.

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ldhr

Since 21 Jul 2009
1186 Posts
Hood River
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PostFri Nov 15, 19 5:34 pm     Reply with quote

Salmon Slayer - it sounds like you're advocating an all or nothing philosophy.

Why does it have to be all or nothing?
If I choose to live simply, consume less, recycle, take my own bags to Safeway..... and still drive my camper van 200 miles to the coast to kite.... that's still better than doing nothing - right?

If I took your critique of do-gooders and 1%er's to it's ultimate conclusion - the only people doing any good are the ones who kill themselves to negate their impact on the earth?

The more I simplify and strip away the crap - the more aware I become and thus my lifestyle slowly evolves.... that's basic human evolution. My kids are way better stewards of the environment than myself.
It won't happen overnight - let's support the people who are making an effort however small.

I'm guessing you're playing devil's advocate and you actually recycle, make do with less when possible, and avoid plastic crap.

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wylieflyote

Since 30 Jun 2006
1435 Posts
Puget Sound & Wa. Coast
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PostSat Nov 16, 19 7:12 am     Reply with quote

Salmon,
You also are adamant about no govt "interference" with our lives.
Please give me your impressions on what I've observed while traveling:
Beautiful remote beach in Mexico... I'm sitting in a beach cafe and I'm thirsty. I look towards the sunset and I see thousands to reflecting bits of plastic trapped in the sand. I ask my waiter for a glass water and he brings me Evain bottled water. I see the kitchen has a 30 liter carboy but it's not for customers.
My premise is If gov't would intervene then the public would catch on in some small way. Ban plastic straws, plastic one-serving bottles.

This same story occurred in the mountains of very remote Mexico when a waiter brought me a bottle from Fiji Island. True story. Really? Plastic, then bunker fuel and truck fuel for 10K miles to get it to my table for 3 1/2 minutes?

Who gives a shit what Al Gore flies, let's solve some problems rather then crowd the air with static.

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Kip Wylie

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user124

Since 02 Aug 2012
295 Posts
Portland
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PostSat Nov 16, 19 3:47 pm     Reply with quote

SalmonSlayer wrote:
SalmonSlayer wrote:
So are you trying to say that because people that voice concern about impending ecologic crisis don't "walk the walk", this is some kind of evidence that there isn't really a problem?


Nowhere did I say their was no eco problem. Let me try one more time.

We have people in this discussion and elsewhere expressing deep concern for the environment, yet they are engaging in the exact activities that are the cause of what they are complaining about. Before we ask one person on the economic margins to change a thing, us 1%ers (approx 34k income annually) should set an example, but you see almost zero personal sacrifice by eliminating elective activities. Al Gore is an extreme example that illustrates the point. It is about forcing A'ls agenda on everyone, including those in the greatest energy poverty, via the heavy hand of government. I would never ask someone to do something that I would not do myself first and lead by example. There have been plenty of time I have given a crew jobs. I always took the worst one. THAT is how you get people to listen, respect you and pay attention to your lead. I dont see Al Gore even breaking his private air travel habits. The fact that I even need to explain leading by example should be a default action if you want others to listen and then receiving objections and resistance is telling of where our culture is today.



If you agree there is an eco problem, then presumably you agree something should change to make it better. So is your proposed solution to complain about the hypocrisy of Al Gore and others and try and evoke cultural change so more lead by example? Seems like a long shot to me.

The fact that even someone like Al Gore does not conserve is perhaps the best argument for policy change and government intervention.

As for your argument about disproportionate affects on people at the economic margins, there is no doubt that wealth and resource inequality are issues that need to be better addressed. But using that as an argument that we should do nothing regarding a potential ecologic crisis doesn't hold water. Especially because those at the economic margin are least able to insulate themselves from the effects of climate change and pollution and therefore are most likely to be harmed.

I get that government can have a heavy hand and that laws and regulations aren't the best solution to every problem. But I just don't see another way to address the current environmental issues in a timely and effective way.

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navi

Since 23 Aug 2014
49 Posts

 



PostSun Nov 17, 19 9:16 am     Reply with quote

Can we put this thread to rest?
A lot of posturing and virtue signaling going on ... by kiters! Here is something for us to chew on:

We buy gear that is made far away, from plastic and all kinds of toxins.
We fly and drive ridiculous distances to get a dopamine rush for a few hours.

Think of the environmental damage this pursuit causes. We are guilty as hell. So, if the above causes you discomfort or induces an intolerable amount of guilt, you have a choice to make.

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Hein

Since 08 Mar 2005
1242 Posts

Possessed



PostSun Nov 17, 19 1:17 pm     Reply with quote

I don't feel guilty for working hard to have fun in my life. I hope to inspire people younger than myself to do the same. For them to succeed I wish to preserve the freedom that brings the rewards of that pursuit.

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jiberus




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PostSun Nov 17, 19 3:54 pm     Reply with quote

What has the heavy-handed government ever done for us? Government regulation never works. Blah blah blah. It’s only our personal actions that will make the change. Blah blah blah.
If you don’t change everything then you’re a hypocrite and you should do nothing. Stupid government regulation. The hole in the ozone that the governments around the globe came together and basically solved(Kite surfing would be a lot of fun these days with a big juicy ozone hole above us…). Auto safety regulations. Drunk driving laws saving thousands and thousands of lives. Food safety. And here’s a special one for those Fox News “USA USA fuck yeah! patriots.... Bald eagles.

jiberus




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PostSun Nov 17, 19 3:58 pm     Reply with quote

Oh and for those folks that like to slay salmon. Just take personal responsibility and stop buying gold and I’m sure Bristol Bay will be just fine. No need for those stupid libtards and government regulation regarding the Pebble Creek mine, right??

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