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inferno
Since 19 Jul 2006
167 Posts
Stoked
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 Wed Sep 27, 06 4:44 pm |
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| pkh wrote: | Hear me now and believe me later. Come on, there has to be some other Big Rag enthusiasts out there! Stand up!  |
my smallest kite last year was 14m, could ride it litt in 25knots, seriously litt...
if it wasnt for 21m nemi i would have been on the beach watching most of the time at 200lbs
who would want to put up a small kite and ride a big board when you can rig a big kite and a small board??????
thats like saying... would you rather work the kite to get enough pull to build enough board speed to get enough apparent wind to get enough power to bust a few moves.... or just rig big and be able to go huge when ever you want.... thats a tough question 
and for all those who talk about rigging small and learning to get the most from your kite, thats cool and a great skill to have but sometimes i dont want to work the kite, i want to kiteboard!!!!!!!!
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pkh
Since 27 Feb 2005
6548 Posts
Couve / Hood
Site Lackey
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| Wed Sep 27, 06 5:23 pm |
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| inferno wrote: | | pkh wrote: | | Hear me now and believe me later. Come on, there has to be some other Big Rag enthusiasts out there! Stand up! |
my smallest kite last year was 14m, could ride it litt in 25knots, seriously litt...
if it wasnt for 21m nemi i would have been on the beach watching most of the time at 200lbs
who would want to put up a small kite and ride a big board when you can rig a big kite and a small board??????
thats like saying... would you rather work the kite to get enough pull to build enough board speed to get enough apparent wind to get enough power to bust a few moves.... or just rig big and be able to go huge when ever you want.... thats a tough question |
There comes a point of diminishing returns with big kites. Sure you get big pull, but its big downwind pull. Smaller kites can go upwind faster and are much faster and more efficient overall. So you can haul ass, rip around swell, do kiteloops...
I know Slither does a lot of downwinding on the coast so maybe the big kites make more sense then. But if I was on the coast and it was that light I'd probably be riding my skim trying to get that surf feel rather than a big kite. I think I remember doing a downwinder on my 7m and skim when Slither was on his 16m and TT... we both had a blast.
I guess its all a question of what your aiming for. If feeling lit is what you want then big kites serve a purpose I guess. You won't really jump any higher, you might hang longer though. I guess when its that light out boosting isn't really that interesting to me. I think in really light wind its either about kiteloops, or surfing.
Anyway I didn't mean to wreck the big kite buzz. I have noticed big guys generally like big kites, which makes sense they can hold down more kite. I am a medium sized guy and I got over the big kite a while ago.
One more thing - if you all haven't tried a Glide, you absolutely should. Its an amazing lightwind device. It might make you might re-think your quiver. 
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gabe
Since 16 May 2005
475 Posts
Obsessed
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| Wed Sep 27, 06 5:58 pm |
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this isn't really something to argue about, since it's just about doing what you prefer, but i bet many people have never really tried an approprite fast board/small kite combo, or learned the technique to make it work, so they shouldn't disregard the idea of riding "underpowered."
making this work isn't necessarily about riding a giant board, it's more about riding very fast, and generating power that way. power is power, no matter how you get it. small board/big kites often give a sensation of speed, but often just an illusion to make people think the sport is really exciting.
but, although my biggest kite has been a 9m SLE for a long time, there are conditions where this approach doesn't work as well as the hype would indicate.
one is in lots of chop or steep swells. this slows you down so much that it's hard to maintain a lot of speed, and then you can't generate much apparent wind. the difference this makes is absolutely huge. this is a big factor on the coast outside the breakers on a windy day.
second is downwinders. the conventional thought is you can/should ride underpowerd in downwinders on waves. i agree, but there are different degrees of being underpowered. i have actually found many times where i can ride comfortably in a straight line (by generating speed)--maybe just saying upwind-- but riding downwind in the waves by moving the kite actually sucks and is extremely technical and tiring. this is because you drop your apparent wind riding down the line, and every transition of the board and kite further drops the speed. it's very easy to bog down. also, the waroos i believe are actually not the ideal kite for this. they stall too easily, not enough grunt, require too much airspeed, not enough grunt when turning. you have very little power on tap, and often the power bursts are short, so you need to time waves perfectly, and it's a bit sketchy with so little power. many many times i have wanted bigger kites for the light wind downwinder, or maybe a C kite....
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Yardsale
Since 29 Mar 2005
387 Posts
Portlanastan
Obsessed
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| Wed Sep 27, 06 6:37 pm |
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Too many generalizations here....as kites get better and more efficient sizes will get smaller-they already have. What was true 3 years ago is not true now. Newer 16 meter "C" kites have the power of older 20 meter kites, they are faster and more manageable and depower alot better. I'm close to 200lbs and 16 is as big a C kite as I would need to ride in super light wind. Best things about 20 meter kites is the aerobic benefit gained pumping them up. 
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Kodiak
Since 01 Aug 2005
1114 Posts
Slidey
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| Wed Sep 27, 06 7:40 pm |
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| Quote: | | Kodiak, aren't you talking about the Gorge? Above posts were talking about N. Coast and Sauvie's - light wind spots. |
Nah, I was talking about Sauvies, or super light days in the gorge. basically if there is enough wind to keep my 12m in the air I can pretty much ride the glide.
But I am not trying to tell others what to ride, just what I ride. If you ahve fun on bigger kites, then whatever floats your boat 
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barfly
Since 31 Mar 2005
1210 Posts
Seaside
BRACKISH
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| Thu Sep 28, 06 10:13 am BIG RAGS FOREVER (at least for now :LOL:) |
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What a great post... just read it because I thought the 'Subject' sounded boring. It started out that way but finishing like a true forum champion and the real reason forums exist. Nice work everyone... Phil, go ahead and frame this one up next to the others.
My hopes in this topic are that all the small kite/lightwind-board crew are right but my experience tells me otherwise and I would argue that locations with lots of current/apparent wind challenges (this means YOU!) require more horsepower. There are plenty of 16-20kt days that I rig a 20.5 Machine (I'm 190 wet w/wetsuit). You need the power, especially if there's some swell.
I don't want to: A) pump up my huge kite B) haul it down to the beach C) maintain it (I'm always thrashing it) or D) GET RID OF IT. IMO the question is this: do you want a muscle car or a f@ggy little Fiat?  Personally, I like the feel of the tug on my legs, hitting a big 'ol glassy face and BOOOSTING. I've never seen anyone (except maybe Ben and Amery) do anything special beyond mowing the grass on their small kites and Glides on light days. Power is good and you need all you can get, ho's.
Buy BIG until all SLE/bow/C technology spike settles and there is some real agreement out there. Ben at PacWave has been great and let me try many kites and boards this year (Caution Answer, Waroos, North Rebels, North Vegas, Glides, surfboards, skims). IMO, the big bows/SLEs (12-14) aren't really there yet for on-demand power though they have a nice riding feel and great boosting ability. Doesn't seem like there is much "torque" to 'em and boost just comes from the slingshot (no pun int.) effect of sheeting in and releasing the throw. Big C kites boost from low-end grunt and sending it. Why are all the pros still on Cs (for the most part)? True, you need a bigger C kite but stop telling me I wasted my $ when I'm out there maxed on my Hindenberg and you with your kite all high skipping around lke a fairy. just kidding - have fun out there!
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Garret
Since 07 Sep 2006
254 Posts
Portland
Obsessed
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| Thu Sep 28, 06 10:24 am |
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I have to say that I was just hoping for a little advice, but I think it is totally awesome how this posting took off. I know I have enjoyed reading it and hope the debate continues. Sorry about the "boring" subject 
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shymac
Since 20 Jul 2005
919 Posts
Home Valley, Wa.
Bigfoot
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| Thu Sep 28, 06 10:36 am |
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17 fUel and killing it. When everyone is long gone "Thank God" in Stevenson I'm killin it. LOL I have had the best down winders to Home Valley with my 15 and 17. Night kite with the 17 just about 2 weeks ago with the full moon. 17 kiteLOOPS are SICK.... 
BIG KITES BIG BALLS YES I HAVE BOTH!!! LOL
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pkh
Since 27 Feb 2005
6548 Posts
Couve / Hood
Site Lackey
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| Thu Sep 28, 06 10:43 am |
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Good stuff barfly...
The elephant in the room that the koastal krew isn't acknowledging is boards... Slither says "its just physics" which is true... The common TT that we all love generally have a lot of rocker, big draggy fins, and not much flat planning area, all this tends to slow you down and makes you require more power to stay on plane. The difference between a common TT and a Glide, Skim, or Surfboard is huge. You don't need the grunty pull of a huge kite if you keep your speed up on a faster board.
The smaller kite won't yank you off a wave when you downloop it, it won't blow you up when you tear up the butter on the inside real fast, and it won't stall on the upstroke during a kiteloop. If the wind starts cranking suddenly the smaller kite will depower more letting you enjoy the rest of your session.
This realization hit a lot of people in the last couple years, that along with more efficent medium sized kites... you will notice now out at Sauvies you see much less 16-20m kites than there were in previous years. And you will almost always see somebody out riding a skim or glide when the wind has dropped to nadda.
But like we keep saying its all what kind of stoke you are aiming for. If boosting off of swells on a 20m kite floats your boat, go for it! I will be whipping around my small fairy kite trying to ride the swell, saving the boosting for the nuker days.
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barfly
Since 31 Mar 2005
1210 Posts
Seaside
BRACKISH
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| Thu Sep 28, 06 10:49 am |
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Good points PKH too and the Glide is sweet no doubt. Unless I'm in flatwater or small chop, I meet the water with my face a little too much without some nose flip (LOL !!! GOTTA LOVE THAT TROLLSKI LLLLOOOOOLLLLLLL  ).
You have to keep alot of pressure on the back leg to keep from pearling and the wave performance is novelty at best. But you are kiting! This is most important.
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Onad
Since 04 Mar 2005
1435 Posts
Coast<<PDX>>Gorge
XTreme Poster
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| Thu Sep 28, 06 10:51 am |
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Very well said Barfly. I’m still chuckling...
Nice analysis. Couldn’t agree more!
I hear what you’re saying as well pkh.
Good discussion and somewhat civilized too...
Now, let’s go kite!! Come on west wind!!!
~Nads 
PS I did unload my 21m this year and the 17.5 Machine is my biggest kite. I guess old danglers can learn new tricks?? 
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Wind Slither
Since 04 Mar 2005
2575 Posts
The 503
METAL
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| Thu Sep 28, 06 11:33 am |
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| Garret wrote: | | I was just hoping for a little advice. |
You mentioned getting an 06, but you might want to consider an 07. It appears to me that designs have matured and all the kite makers are becoming closely aligned with their designs. Now who you buy from becomes just as important as what. A good relationship with your local shop goes a long way.
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Sasquatch
Since 09 Mar 2005
2062 Posts
PNW
Bigfoot
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| Thu Sep 28, 06 2:38 pm |
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[quote="Onad Rednaxela"]Very well said Barfly. I’m still chuckling...
Nice analysis. Couldn’t agree more!
I hear what you’re saying as well pkh.
Good discussion and somewhat civilized too...
Now, let’s go kite!! Come on west wind!!!
Barfly, excellent read. . . Now come on west wind!!!!!!!!!!!!! 
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blowhard
Since 26 Dec 2005
2025 Posts
Windward
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| Fri Sep 29, 06 5:30 am yup big kites suck |
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the old 16.0 Naish just sold to ALABAMA for $157.00,yippee
I thought a lot of that kite and pretty well took care of business (for a BULLDOZER),
but now the 12.0 WAROO is as big as I go
(think truck) 
Big kites take a lot of flying skill (i'm not into that)
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Wyo Kiter
Since 09 Mar 2006
148 Posts
In a VAN, down by the RIVER.
Stoked
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| Fri Sep 29, 06 6:01 am 17.5 Machine, Glide and waves |
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hey barflie, you cant ride a piece of plywood in the waves, come on, you got more skillls than that
All i need to ride this set up is a fly to fart on the beach.
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17.5machine Glide and waves.jpg |
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barfly
Since 31 Mar 2005
1210 Posts
Seaside
BRACKISH
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| Fri Sep 29, 06 6:37 am Re: 17.5 Machine, Glide and waves |
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| Wyo Kiter wrote: | | hey barflie, you cant ride a piece of plywood in the waves... |
oh man, I just lost my plywood Sunday (Sunday was a tough day for me) and my Machine bladder fizzled the day before (granted it was my own home-made bladder repair... had to bring the old ski wax iron out of retirement). So yes I'm holding on to the old days of muscle cars and cutoff levis (I even heard GnR is on the road tho no Slash so I can't see myself going to hear Axl - well I don't know we'll see)... I also have a 12' Mistral Pantera (yes, with daggerboard) that I would love to take yachting on the open seas. I'll definitely need the Machine for that!
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Wind Slither
Since 04 Mar 2005
2575 Posts
The 503
METAL
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| Fri Sep 29, 06 7:04 am Re: B2 Trainer/Mistral 12 footer! |
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| barfly wrote: | | I also have a 12' Mistral Pantera (yes, with daggerboard) that I would love to take yachting on the open seas. I'll definitely need the Machine for that! |
Machine? No way, that's so 2004!
Just pack the 12' Mistral wherever you go and all you'll ever need is your B-2 trainer. You'll be rollin with the...how did pkh put it? ...oh yeah "the new hotness"
Sorry, I know, this horse has been beaten beyond dead...
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