Waroo or Warpoo?

bambam · Since 15 Mar 2005 760 Posts Hood River Photographer

Damn, shit, crap... Did not want to get into this, but here I go....

Flat kites are not the magic answer kids, and the marketing machine has duped a lot of people... Learn to kite, learn to deal with the shit that WILL happen... I ride the Torch, not the Shockwave for a reason. I like a kite that will react in a known fashion from a known input. I have seen, and experienced some strange stuff from the Shockwave, Waroo, and Cabrinas... In the end I prefer a well developed C-Kite with a response I know... Yeah, I am sometimes an on the edge, don't quite know how it is going to turn out, I want my kite to relaunch and get me to shore no matter how bad I screwed up, kind of guy. I am a good kiter, but definitely NOT one of the best. Last weekend on the coast I swam in three times due to a simple inversion of the flat kite, where my trusty C would have relaunched.

The future is always changing, and kites will develop... Flat kites rule in terms of depower, but I think right now in development, they lull the user into a sense of ease... Are flat kites going to revolutionize the sport... No way... Are they a bad direction... No way... In the end you as the end user have to be happy with your equipement and understanding of its limitations...

Stop trying to legimiatize your choice of "boat", and just work on making it work for you..

Kite on, Bammer

PS: Phillip, not KITEFORUM... and this discussion NEEDS to be explored. Keep it friendly folks, and just try to inform and educate... Also, BEST is now changing the game because they do have a kite in the Waroo that fully deserves some respect and will effect the direction of production kite design.

shredjim · Since 07 Jun 2006 186 Posts Stoked

Well said bam bam. Sooooo many people are fully drinking the Waroo coolade right now I think its kind of silly. I flew one in Brazil this winter and I thought it was slow and lacked power. My suggestion to all of these coolade drinkers is that before they step in line and wait for delivery to try a North Vegas or soon available Rebel and get a kite that flys the best and has as much de-power as a Waroo, CB or any flat kite.

bandito · Since 07 May 2005 178 Posts Photographer

"Best Kiteboarding warrants its products to the original purchaser in the form of a 30-day performance guarantee. If you are not satisfied with any of our products, you may return the products for a full refund or exchange within 30 days of documented delivery of the product as certified by the shipper."

Buy it, try it and return it if you don't like it.

This is the best deal in the industry! What other company lets you demo a kite for 30 days with the option for a full refund if you don't like it? This is the main reason that I purchased a 7,9 and 12 waroo after trying a 7 for about fifteen minutes one afternoon. I would not have just jumped into it that quickly if not for the guarantee. Now I have been flying my waroo's for almost a month and I am more that pleased with my purchase and will tell all my friends that show intrest in the waroo to do the same thing.

Bandito

Sailut · Since 31 May 2005 72 Posts Utah

pkh · Since 27 Feb 2005 6548 Posts Couve / Hood Site Lackey

Bam - I think the whole flat vs. C kites is a good discussion to have, and will probably go on for years as the two continue to develop. When I said this is starting to sound like a KiteForum thread is the whole BEST debate, which has been going on forever.

Many people blame that debate for ruining kiteforum, I would rather not see it happen here.

pauls · Since 20 Jun 2005 562 Posts white salmon Addicted

Was the wind at SI any good last night? (Weds) I went down by Frenchmans, it was light to super light in the lulls. Much less wind than Tuesday. On a ply board 140 x 42 with W 14 i could get up all the time (barely in the lulls). Iweigh 175lbs. I was more interested in experimenting with light wind water relaunching some more. I had lots of room and zero people around so i could dump the kite in the water next to shore without bothering anyone else. I did this over and over. If i let go of the bar and let the kite fall down into the water off to one side of down wind i could grab the bar and relaunch almost instantly 100% even in the super light wind. However when i got the kite exactly downwind it was a different story. I tried a few different things, pulling on one back line, reverse hot launch tugging both back lines, slack in front lines to roll the kite. All of these worked some of the time, none of them was quick they all involved a good bit of tugging and swimming. So now i know when i use this kite in light winds if i drop it to do everything i can to get it back up in the air as quickly as possible whilst its still off to one side. If it gets downwind i have to be prepared to swim. I plan on trying a 5th line with a release at the bar to clear wrap arounds. Not sure if it will work with the bridles, if it does i'll just add the 5th on light wind days 'til i find a 100% method without it.
I'm a novice kiter and none of this is probably news for experienced kiters but some of the other intermediates using the larger Waroos might find it useful or want to add to it.
Still love the relaunch of this kite when its windy though it just takes itself off to the edge of the wind window and sits there waiting to relaunch. Just needs enough wind to get it moving around.

paul

Onad · Thu Jun 29, 06 7:25 am

No, No, NO!! Listen to me guys!! The kite I fly is superior & just wait until the next generation, it is unbelievable… Wink

~Nads

PS I hear where you’re coming from Bammer.

I have found the SLE kites to work the best for me in high to insane winds. I over-rig the SOB so I can keep the bar sheeted out.

In all other conditions, except the surf perhaps, I still prefer the “C”

Wyo Kiter · Thu Jun 29, 06 7:40 am

Wind+Fuel= Thumb's Up

Wind+Waves+Octane= Thumb's Up

Really Windy+Turbo Diesel+Big Jumps Thumb's Up

Light Wind + Machine= Thumb's Up

Personally I think a one kite "quiver" is about as dooable as a one club "set" of golf clubs.

Bambam is right. The Bows cater to the learner that is all arms, you have to learn to stomp the kite when thing get a littly rowdy, not this Lucy "Stop the World I want to get Off!" when you get hit buy a gust!

pkh · Since 27 Feb 2005 6548 Posts Couve / Hood Site Lackey

On the flat kite vs. C thing...

I am using 13m C as my big kite right now, plan is to get a 9m Waroo and keep my 7m Waroo, sell everything else. I think the C kite works good in light wind and who needs all the depower in lightwind?

Here's the thing: Flat kites are absolutely awesome in the surf. I rode my 13m C one sesh this weekend and then switched to the 7m Waroo the rest of the weekend. Even when I was a bit underpowered I still preferred the Waroo. There's a few reasons why:

1) If you crash the flat kite LE down, only the center of it touches the water, so waves crashing on it have less of a chance of burying the whole kite than if the entire LE sat on the water. I did get it buried buy a wave once but it relaunched fine almost right after. I know there is a good chance of the bridle getting caught up on the tip, in that case your probably swimming in. So no, its not perfect!

2) I could ride as fast as I wanted going out against the surf and never have to worry about getting launched off the waves (unless I wanted to.) I never stopped edging or had to go downwind to avoid the unintentional launch over waves, I just sheeted out and popped right over the wave without ever leaving the water or losing any ground or speed. Because of this I could ride much faster on the Waroo.

3) When riding waves I could sheet the kite out completely and get all of my glide from the wave. I did this a few times on my skim and it felt awesome!

4) When trying to ride on a wave and perform cutbacks (something I suck at btw) I could simply keep my left hand on the bar fairly close to the center and control the whole process. By pulling back a little I could keep the kite sheeted in and it would give me power. Pull back a little more and I could fully loop the kite, turn into the wave, carve, sheet out again so I get as much power as possible from the wave. Basically I had total control and I was only using one hand. I did all this without a stopper too btw.

In contrast on my C kite downlooping the kite regulardless of how far sheeted out I am usually results in a downwind lurch that takes me away from the section of wave I want to be on (and you know those minature blown out OC waves we had this weekend the good sections are small.) I know there are guys out there who have been riding waves for years who can deal with this and I envy them for that ability. But using the flat kite I could emulate their riding style with my realtively weak surf skills.

So anyway, those are my viewpoints. I see Bam's points about the bridle wrapping ending up in a kite that can't be relaunched. If you are a newb and learning on a flat kite, better learn how to self rescue first, because it will happen. But for the most part I'd say they offer more safety and control.

YRMV!

Btw, a lot of us (like myself) weren't convinced of the flat kites at first, I demoed them last year and didn't commit until just a month ago. And like I said I still am not sold not the big sizes. So I wouldn't make claims like "we have drank the koolaid" if you knew where we were coming from.

bambam · Since 15 Mar 2005 760 Posts Hood River Photographer

Careful about reading too much into my comments...

Flat kites are what they are, and have some attributes (depower) that I LUV in the surf. There are some top end kiters out there who are RIPPING on them and the attributes of the kite are what they are looking for...

In the end it is about finding the kite that works for you and the conditions you ride in...

pkh · Since 27 Feb 2005 6548 Posts Couve / Hood Site Lackey

bambam · Since 15 Mar 2005 760 Posts Hood River Photographer

And then swimming in a few times... But, yeah after I got the bar dialed into the Bammer's specifications (thanks for the stopper ball Mr. Doyle), that kite RULED in the waves with all that silky depower.

Pilot error put her in the drink a couple of times, and after a wave (okay, so they were more like ankle high wavelets) induced inversion, she decided that relaunching was just not in the cards.

Something about bridals and the lack of the trusty fifth line does not quite sit right with me yet... But, I think the future will hold that I end up with at least one flat kite in the 9m range for coastal adventure.

Kite on, Jon

pdxmonkeyboy · Thu Jun 29, 06 8:46 am

One would think it would be easier to decide on a kite but alas, it seems at times to be all consuming. My experience with C kites to date has been with older models, none with a 5th line. Some of the new c kites like the umm, can't remember the name right now have the 5th line on a wing spanning bridle that would prevent the line from wrapping in a roll over.

Coming from my "angry" 02' fuel the bow kites were a godsend of sorts. I haven't experienced any problems what so ever from the crossbows I have flown and have had dozens of sessions with them. When the waroo was giving me trouble I kind of went on the attack as it seemed at the time that it was a function of being poorly designed. They do have the 30-day warranty which, to say the least, is awesome. So perhaps we'll mess with the 14 some more and see what develops.

I definately appreciate the feedback from everyone. many people made very valid points. There will always be threads of dissent but as long as it doesn't turn personal, its just a healthy debate that in the end, will serve to infrom the people.

Thanks again,
B.

gabe · Since 16 May 2005 475 Posts Obsessed

I generally agree with this. I don’t think the waroo is really safer than a c kite. In fact, it has much more that can go wrong—things that aren’t well understood. A c kite is dangerous in its power—which is well understood and hard to hide from.

Flat kite risks:
Mid-air inversion
Self rescue is technical and inefficient
Very likely to invert or tumble into a non-relaunchable state if crashed with slack lines or in waves
Bridles can break
Bridles can snag
Many rely on grab handles, not permanent one line leash
Tempt you to rig too big of kite—false sense of security

C kite risks:
Hard to turn power off—results in many risks including on land, getting dragged away from board, pulled under water etc etc.
Relaunch can be hard if not 5th line

I don’t like waroos because they are “safer” but because of the control and performance. Overall, I may feel a bit safer on them, but that’s just because I have small kites and thus avoid using them at the extreme high end, understand how the sheeting and inversion works, very rarely drop them, and check them for wear. I personally consider this a dangerous sport to begin with, so am not overly bothered by it. I would be doing something more dangerous if not kiting anyways. If you have the risk tolerance of a golfer, then you should kite accordingly.

I strongly believe that these kites shouldn’t be ridden at the very upper end of their range. They can get very unstable and unpredictable, and would be very dangerous if things go wrong. It seems like some people are able to ride the xbow stupidly overpowered (until something goes wrong). I don’t think the waroo is like that—it gives you feedback that it’s out of its range before things get too dangerous. I believe in comparisons, not wind numbers, and personally I would probably prefer a normal 8m than a waroo 9 in really high wind. The kites do have excellent overall range, but I think they are good high wind kites b/c they give you control over the power when in their range, not because they have unlimited top range. There is a big difference. It’s easy to confuse the former with the latter.

PDX, If you don’t like the waroo, don’t buy it. The style of kiting takes a bit to get used to, and may not be for everyone. I do notice that the average skill level recently of kiters using waroos is quite high. I don’t think they are buying it for “safety” and I don't think most of them were just following the herd and duped by marketing. But this might change if people view it as a default, “cheap” flat kite, and don’t really appreciate what it does. I think buying a kite you don't actually even like would qualify Wink

If you prefer an xbow, i'm sure you can get a used one somewhere.