My take on 2 line; small trainer 'toy' kites...

Kite Me · Since 04 Aug 2008 39 Posts portland I'm very handsome

I'm new here(hello all!).

I have been all over youtube checking out everything 'kite' I can. When I started doing this a few months ago, I first was looking at power kites(land use foils). I quickly became interested...wait...rather: posessed(!!)by the cross-use for snow and water of kiting. I read in more than a few places about 'first getting a small 2 line trainer' before moving to 4 line or a larger kite...especially if one is considering kitesurfing or snowkiting. You better know kite control BEFORE you mix it up with moving on a board.

However I disagree with the recommendation of the little 2 and 3 meter; two line kites that are recommended for training. if you just do not want to spend more(or it is just what the instructor you have has for you to use?)on a kite, I guess that is okay. But, I bought a 4 meter and 4 line power kite and I am hugely glad I did not limit myself to a little; two line kite. I think anybody with the intelligence to be kiting at all, will get VERY bored of a little two line kite VERY fast. The problem with that is that, then you are unlikely to spend the TIME it takes to REALLY learn the feel of a kite; what it is capable of; the dynamics throughout the wind window. Having the added two lines(brakes) will allow you to do control options that are much harder or even undoable on a 2 line kite. For example: You WILL, as you learn 360's on your kite eventually land your kite leading edge first...which means you have a kite that will be at least 180 dgrees out of normal launch position. With brakes you can cross control the kite, causing one side to in effect, fly in reverse and so flip the kite back over and relaunch. Brakes allow fine tuned contro for turning and landing as well. THAT kind of control is exactly what will best transfer to controlling the larger kites later. You should have a kite(a 4 line)that gives you the greatest ability and function to learn. By learning it you will be better off when you later include the board. If you can drive a car or pedal a bike...your brain is capable of working a four line kite. WHY the 2 liners are held up as best is beyond me?

Kite control is not hard! The trick is to turn the knowledge into a feel and and instinct and the only way you will do THAT is to have a kite that is as dynamic as possible. THAT inspires you to fly more and it is only that practice wherein the feel and instinct is developed. You need a kite that is also going to give you some great PULL in good winds! If you can keep your head straight enough to respond with correct control motions, with a kite that gives you enough range of challenge...you are much closer to handling that FAR larger and stronger kite that is going to be moving you fast on the water. I'm close to 200 pounds and occaionally my 4.0 meter has taken me for a sudden and surprise skid! You think that won't happen when you are on the water later? I Fly in a variety of winds. And I am so impressed with what a good power kite and time with can attune one to, that I think that even hang gliding and paragliding schools should start their students with powerkites. If you cannot cooperate flawlessy with the air(via the kite)while your body is still on the ground...you probably should not be in the air! Until you CAN. I believe many lives in such airsports could have been/be saved(or bones!)if this were a larger practice among sky sports. But HG schools and PG schools do not use powerkites to introduce their students to the dynamics and power of the air. I fly hang gliders and when I flew a powerkite the first time I KNEW this was some amazing and fun tool that I wish I had known about and flown before I ever took(wholly)to the air for my first time.

So...I guess this is my take on what powerkite(4 line!) is going to benefit your kiting progress best. I have zero interest in 2 line trainers. I am SO glad I did not purchase one. I am learning kiteboarding on water and waiting for the winter snow afterward. What an awesome year round sport opportunity kiting is! Up till now I have spent about 15 hours with my Radsails 4.0 at the park and the beach and I can get that kite to do everything but scratch my back. THAT is the confidence I wanted to have BEFORE I hit the water..or the snow...on the 11 meter I now have as well. I just do not see how it is possible to get that with a 2 line 'toy'. IMO Wink

Diggy · Since 25 Nov 2006 342 Posts Gorge to Coast Obsessed

I always wanted to try a kite with handles. I'm curious as to why you didn't start with a small inflatable or if you plan to use the foil on the water?

Looks like your kite is about twice the price of my 4M 2 line foil kite. I get what your saying and at 200# you weigh more than most (like me). I like my 2 line foil now for letting friends use them, less to think about without the extra lines, and for night skateboarding at the home depot.

Anyway, glad you like your kite.

NateDogg · Mon Aug 04, 08 7:45 pm

Cool dood. I can't believe we've been doing it wrong all this time...

tonyb · Mon Aug 04, 08 7:45 pm

Hien! I though your post was fine - shoulda left it up! made me Smile

(for those that missed it - you snooze - you lose!)

Anyway, 54 or so views now....

What I've learned on nwkite.com:

Shorter posts last longer and get more responses. Best to break up the book above into 5 or 6 replies as people respond to your post. Most of us have too much going on to read a dissertation. (learned that the hard way!)

I don't think 2 vs 4 lines matter in the trainer kite / learning session - it's the skills you practice while learning. If you just zip the kite around the sky giggling to yourself and saying bring it on you're not getting the right skills. A two line kite can demonstrate the wind window, the power of the kite, how to do a powerstroke, and most importantly, how to handle the kite one handed without looking at it.

A 4 line foil may not be the most forgiving kite to learn to relaunch with in the middle of the Columbia. I think there's a reason the majority of water kites are LEI types. I hear what you're saying but used properly a two line kite can be just as good a training tool as a 4 line.

Oh, and welcome to the forum!

Tony

Kite Me · Since 04 Aug 2008 39 Posts portland I'm very handsome

I was not trying to be short or long in my post. Which type/length of attention span should I aim for? I was just relaying my opinion(hence the 'IMO' at the end) as being a once newbie and finding that a 4 line gives more challenge and so enjoyment in return. Nor did I say people had been "doing it wrong all this time"(I love the 'chef-boy-ar-dee'(canned) kind of sarcasm! sheez!).

I started on a foil as my initial interest was a kite best for land(which an inflatable is not)and possibly usable for early snowboard practice. it was the most sensible investment FOR ME to buy what would work for two things instead of 'train' for one. I have the 11 meter fuel for learning to kiteboard on. Kiting offers many things and choices. Be glad that it is not regulated by ONE organisation(like hang gliding)that can keep YOU from learning or flying if you DON'T support the 'good ol boy' network. Safety/responsibility/ LOTS of room to move and choices, without over regulation! Another reason why I am stoked about kiting of any kind.

80 something views and finally somebody welcomed me. Ha! Thanks! Very Happy

NateDogg · Mon Aug 04, 08 10:51 pm **Re: 2 line trainers**

pkh · Since 27 Feb 2005 6549 Posts Couve / Hood Honored Founder

pdxmonkeyboy · Tue Aug 05, 08 8:03 am

"Hello everyone, I'm new here and based on the wealth of knowledge I gleaned from u-tube, I'm here to say that anyone who bought a 2m or3 m two line kite has wasted their money"

So you spent double the cash on your 4m, it doesn't fly like an inflated kite and your going to use it where? On the snow, and you weigh 200lbs? That is called ice kiting or snow kiting in a hurricane.

Lastly, its a little too big (on most gorge days) to just hand some chick on the beach and say "here, give it a go" without fear of them cracking their skull open.

The only shot at redemption you have is to show up to sk8kite with your 4m this winter and prove us all wrong.

wakeup · Since 11 Sep 2005 328 Posts always Obsessed

funny stuff
this guy is an insta-pro
just add water
he'll be on the pro tour next year once he gets his dangle pass and switch dangle pass on lockdown

i saw a 40 yr old/ 200 pound man get slammed into the ground and drug for twenty yards the other day on one of these so called toy kites.

guess our expert hasn't tried his 4m in tha gorge on a nice 20 -30 day

Kite Me · Since 04 Aug 2008 39 Posts portland I'm very handsome

okay..."8 year olds" it is! Anybody tuning into SpongeBob today?

PS: try a FOUR line in 20-30 mph winds! You'll be packing that 2 line 3 meter off to grandma. (I mean that in a nice way...of course)

(if your 8 yo...you should stop here. Your Fruit loops will get soggy if you try to struggle through what follows).

re: a pm I just got, which I appreciated much:

Thanks ******, I completely understand where you are coming from. It is true in the hang gliding world to...except it is hard ground beneath and we even as beginners get higher and spend more time there than kiteboarders. I metnion this because it is an awareness that follows me into kiteboarding. I have an older wing that many will say is out of date and others who will say it is a great glider....which I know it to BE. Lesson there that it PAYS to remember.

The person I bought my fuel from learned on it and has proven to me to be a real stand up guy already. My first day snow-skiing(in my life...at 41 yo)I spent 6 hours out on the runs; even turned down the wrong runs a few times(ski...crash...ski...crash....ski....crash!!!) but I had taken lessons and as/more important kept my head about me. I knew I would crash and so I was not afraid but ready to 'go with it' if and when it came. I have seen in several sports that the main reason people get hurt is that they did not USE what they learned about their equipment(in time)whether new or old. I would bet that EVERY instructor of any sport would love to have a magic wand that they could wave over their students to get them to STAY RELAXED AND FOCUSED. That is how I am by default.

I learned a long time ago that sensibility rules the day whatever you are doing/using and so I am approaching kiteboarding with that 'stay loose and aware' attitude. I got attacked bya huge bad ass dog when I was 13 that tore my leg up good. I have been faced with big mean dogs since and the 'ready to act' circuits kick in. They know it too. I learned that fear needs to turn to action FAST at 13 and it stuck with me. No equipment age or type replaces coherence.

I am glad that I have water under me in KB and yet I do not forget the power of water and speed. I would love to be able to afford and learn on the new hybrids that are out...but I like many will have to wait on that. I have read more than alot and talked to many kb'rs and the consensus I have gotten is pretty much, approach it slow and sensibly and KNOW your/your gears abilities and limitations. That approach is not new to me. I will certainly respect others opinions and knowledge. It would be stupid for me not to.

Yet I have seen so many would be hang glider pilots kept out because of so much erroneous information about the older equipment. I am VERY knowledgable about hang gliding/gliders and I HOPE that KB'rs won't be kept out of KB'ing because of the same. Unfortunately both good and bad information goes just as far. One more reason to learn all one can from the beginning.

I am going to approach this with the attitude that I will go for what I can safely get out of the gear I have, and take the valuable knowledge and experience I will gain(instead of sitting around waiting to afford the BEST stuff)to the next kite/level. Since there are thousands of budding kiteboarders in the same position, it makes sense to accept that fact and help people know and use what they have as best as they can. If my instructor only wanted me to learn and buy new equipment, he would not be my instructor. As long as equipment is safe for operation and matched to the maturity/physical and mental abilities of the rider the road should not be blocked. Do you agree?

There is no such thing as a forum without flaming( I wish!)and I have already gotten a taste for that just by posting my experience with my 4 line foil. I am not a person who lays down for much of that...but at the same time I get it that forums are kinda that way and it is going to happen. No biggie. It can be funny. When I start being afraid of what comes off of somebody's keyboard it will be time to get out the Pampers.

Overall I am just glad to be ito kiteboarding now. and it does not bother me to say I envy all of you who already are where i hope to be. And I will be working on getting better and repsect those who are, even if I do not like what they say at times. thanks for your pm! I appreciate the viewpoints and the courtesy. Artistic and CREATIVE flamers are welcomed to. I graduated from the 'Jack Nicholson School of Communications' so I am ready to talk about physics or 'yo mama' with anybody. Laughing

I am selling one of my favorite kayaks tomorrow, so I can get more kite gear.

Again, thanks for the courteous/concern in the pm.

Kite Me · Since 04 Aug 2008 39 Posts portland I'm very handsome

a short post...just to prove I can. (Going to finish my crabby-paddy now.)

ps: DIGGY I love that 'cap-met'! Now I know how to dress for KB. Always a factor in any sport.

pdxmonkeyboy · Tue Aug 05, 08 8:44 am

Well, you seem to have a pretty good handle on things kite me. You've done your "research" and have decided on the path you wanted to take no matter what anyone else was going to suggest.

So just for shit and giggles? Why did you feel the need to come and post here, just to tell people that they were wrong, insinuate that they are all babies, and insult the very people that you will be kiting next to on the beach and will likely need their assistance at some point in the future?

At least you won't have to wear a helmet when your learning, your head is harder than most objects you will encounter in and around the river.

Kite Me · Since 04 Aug 2008 39 Posts portland I'm very handsome

pdxmonkeyboy: you neither read well or understood what I said. Lots of people who own computers fall into that category.

When I was in second grade we learned about 'context clues'. It's not to late for you. Hooked on phonix is way cheaper than any kite.

It pays to have something TO flame about...BEFORE you do. A wise man when faced with someone like you once said: "PFFFFFFF!!!!" Ps: I will be cruising past the freeway entrance today but I have no spare change for ya. I made it very clear that I respect others opinions and choices. You show no respect at all . You are a load of crap looking for an outhouse. Kite Me says BITE ME.

YOU HAVE BEEN OWNED.

pdxmonkeyboy · Tue Aug 05, 08 8:48 am

Where the hell did I save that unicorn avatar at?

Nak · Tue Aug 05, 08 9:18 am

Kite Me'

First off, PDX is one of the very first to help anyone that needs it. You've just PO'd a lot of people on here. It's clear you don't know why, so:

Your posts show a little truth mixed in with some very bad assumptions. You have very little real knowledge, and yet you post your ideas as if they are well thought out. (They are not. ) Many novices read this board, and some of them might just be convinced by your arguments. That could get somebody killed. As in dead. That is why folks get pissed when you post.

This isn't your typical Internet forum. Most people on here know one another, and see each other on the water on a regular basis. For that reason and others, there is very little flaming here except when it's deserved. Please think on that.

As far as your gear choices: Yes, you can learn with your gear. You also stand a much higher chance of being killed or severely injured than with newer gear. Beaches were less crowded, by a long shot, four years ago. If you get killed now, there's a much higher chance of taking someone else with you now.

You show a high degree of confidence based on past activities. While some of that knowledge will help you, it is nothing compared to the skill and knowledge available on this forum. The US government invested millions of dollars in my aviation training, and I did things that most can only dream of. Yet I do not presume to call the experienced kiters on this forum "babies". Instead, I seek their knowledge and advice to help improve my skills. All of my years flying jets, and this sport still kicks my ass.

Kite Me, the rest of us have seen novices do a lot of scary shit. We all know the day is coming when a novice will be killed here. Your posts hasten that day. Please think on that before you post again. "A little knowledge is dangerous."

Kite Me · Since 04 Aug 2008 39 Posts portland I'm very handsome

Kite Me · Since 04 Aug 2008 39 Posts portland I'm very handsome

This isn't your typical Internet forum. Most people on here know one another, and see each other on the water on a regular basis. For that reason and others, there is very little flaming here except when it's deserved. Please think on that.

WHERE did I call kiteboarders 'babies"????? copy paste the quote! 'first off" If there is a good ol' boy network here.that would not surprise me one bit. As for the disrespect...it only shows that you are attached at the mental naval to the incoherent comments fromn a few(like monkeyboy)instead of what I actually said. THERE is a fact for you.

I CAN speak to what I do know and that is all I have done. If you disagree with my argument on 2 line vs 4 line (regarding LAND kites...Jesus! cannot you read either???)meet me with ypour 2 line land kite and i will show you how a froil works.
do I need to pull up my own quotes to prove the respect I have and have mentioned for those who know and do KB!? I notice YOU do not.

Newsflash...I don't need a forum to DO the sports I do as I LIVE my life in the 3-d world....not aon forums. I was referred here by a long time KB'r. Why, I'm beginning to wonder?
So where is all this good people and knowledge you say you are all so ready to impart? seems to me YOU are more susceptible to a few opinions from a new guy to the forum. Which is pathetic actually. That is YOUR deal. I did not come here with tat approach toward anybody but I sure can deal with if THAT is your take on people who come here and do not please you by kissing your ass 'just right'.

Whatever.