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Foil Mast 91 or 101?

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Northwest Kiteboarding -> Gorge / Portland / Oregon Coast
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Kay

Since 11 May 2009
148 Posts
Portland
Stoked



PostTue Sep 22, 20 10:08 pm    Foil Mast 91 or 101? Reply with quote

Looking for mast size advice. I'm already leaning towards the 101 but perhaps someone that has more experience with both size can help me out.

I'm looking at getting the Moses 558 with 330 stabilizer.

I currently ride a aluminum/composite 90cm foil and sometimes I wish I had a little longer mast... when I lean upwind, "poping" to switch feet, aggressive carves.

There is a used Moses with a 91 mast for a good price; however, I have the feeling I'll always regret not going to 101... the grass always seems greener on the other side kind of thing.

I ride mainly on Columbia River (HR, Stevenson, Sauvie). My board is a 4'6 Duotone Pace, strapless. Since I've only ridden 90cm mast I got nothing to compare with. What am I really missing out on if I dont go up in length?

I don't mind falling from higher at faster speeds, I wear a helmet and a vest. Has anyone gone from 91 to 101? Anyone from 101 to 91?

Lastly, anyone wanting to downsize & trade if I get the 91 mast?

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eric

Since 13 Jan 2006
1640 Posts

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PostWed Sep 23, 20 7:52 am     Reply with quote

One can mt bike with differing lengths of travel on shocks. Increased travel makes downhill on bumpy. terrain a lot more fun for me, but you do lose a bit of precision.

Trade-offs

Personally, in The Gorge, I have found that longer is better. Do know that the Moses 91cm mast is pretty soft, which some folks like. Not me.

Eric

Last edited by eric on Thu Sep 24, 20 9:50 pm; edited 1 time in total

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wylieflyote

Since 30 Jun 2006
1517 Posts
Puget Sound & Wa. Coast
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PostWed Sep 23, 20 11:44 am     Reply with quote

I had the Moses 91... Sold it and switched to the Moses 101.
I'm glad you've asked this question because I'm still confused about my decision.

101 Pluses....
I mainly like the extra height because my wing no longer breaches (crash) especially in deep swell.

101 Negatives:
Maybe it's slower, more drag?
People say you lose the tight aggressive turns?

I asked this same question on Kiteforum and the answers were near unanimous shorter is better. But these people aren't Gorge foilers.

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Nak

Since 19 May 2005
3893 Posts
Camas
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PostWed Sep 23, 20 11:48 am     Reply with quote

I have heard that the Slingshot Phantasm is very close to release. A tiny bit heavier than the Moses 101 but significantly stiffer. Something to consider.

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ZMar

Since 13 May 2018
22 Posts

 



PostWed Sep 23, 20 2:23 pm     Reply with quote

If you’re planning on using the 558 front wing then a 101 mast is a pretty obvious choice for the gorge and honestly, in general. The only time you want a shorter mast is if you’re riding with bigger wings on waves and the 558 definitely isn’t that. For riders on a 633 or larger (more of a surf wing) then having an 80-90cm mast will make the foil feel a lot snappier and tighter on waves and swell but if you’re riding on a 558 then that point is pretty mute. The 558 has a stall speed that’s too high to make those snappy turns anyway so there’s no plus to a shorter mast with that wing. The 101 will be stiffer, give you better upwind performance, and more room for error in maneuvers. Feel free to pm me if you have any more questions about the setup or want some more info. I will say, my go to wing right now is the 558 and it’s super fun but it really doesn’t like to ride the gorge swell. On bigger ocean waves you can really get on the wave but here the swell is just too small and slow barring a couple huge days a year out at Arlington. If you want to do powered free ride or jump then the 558 is awesome!

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Kay

Since 11 May 2009
148 Posts
Portland
Stoked



PostWed Sep 23, 20 10:58 pm     Reply with quote

Thank you all for the feedback and your experience with 101 vs 91. I’ll go with the 101.

As far as the SS Foil is concerned, any release dates in mind, more info or comparability with the Moses wings/stabilizers? I see a forum from 2019 mentioning in but nothing is out yet.

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Jonpnw

Since 22 Jul 2010
1278 Posts
Pacific Northwest
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PostThu Sep 24, 20 7:05 am     Reply with quote

Kay wrote:
Thank you all for the feedback and your experience with 101 vs 91. I’ll go with the 101.

As far as the SS Foil is concerned, any release dates in mind, more info or comparability with the Moses wings/stabilizers? I see a forum from 2019 mentioning in but nothing is out yet.


The Phantasm line will be out soon , October ? There will be a 92/102 mast . It looks bomber and should be more durable than the previous layup.

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Pepi

Since 16 Jun 2006
1792 Posts
Pure Stoke Sports
Shop Owner

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PostThu Sep 24, 20 9:38 pm     Reply with quote

I would say that this is definitely one of the better comments on the positives and negatives for wing and mast selection.
Wings and masts should be selected to suit your own personal riding terrain and skills development goals.


ZMar wrote:
If you’re planning on using the 558 front wing then a 101 mast is a pretty obvious choice for the gorge and honestly, in general. The only time you want a shorter mast is if you’re riding with bigger wings on waves and the 558 definitely isn’t that. For riders on a 633 or larger (more of a surf wing) then having an 80-90cm mast will make the foil feel a lot snappier and tighter on waves and swell but if you’re riding on a 558 then that point is pretty mute. The 558 has a stall speed that’s too high to make those snappy turns anyway so there’s no plus to a shorter mast with that wing. The 101 will be stiffer, give you better upwind performance, and more room for error in maneuvers. Feel free to pm me if you have any more questions about the setup or want some more info. I will say, my go to wing right now is the 558 and it’s super fun but it really doesn’t like to ride the gorge swell. On bigger ocean waves you can really get on the wave but here the swell is just too small and slow barring a couple huge days a year out at Arlington. If you want to do powered free ride or jump then the 558 is awesome!

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Nak

Since 19 May 2005
3893 Posts
Camas
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PostFri Sep 25, 20 9:33 am     Reply with quote

ZMar wrote:
The 101 will be stiffer,


I'm riding the 91 currently. My understanding is that the 101 is the same construction as the 91, just 10 cm longer. If that's the case, the 101 would be effectively less stiff than the 91... Am I missing something?

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Matt V

Since 26 Oct 2014
441 Posts
Summer- OR Coast, Winter - My van near good snow
Explosive Diarrhea



PostFri Sep 25, 20 3:14 pm     Reply with quote

Pepi wrote:
I would say that this is definitely one of the better comments on the positives and negatives for wing and mast selection.
Wings and masts should be selected to suit your own personal riding terrain and skills development goals.


ZMar wrote:
If you’re planning on using the 558 front wing then a 101 mast is a pretty obvious choice for the gorge and honestly, in general. The only time you want a shorter mast is if you’re riding with bigger wings on waves and the 558 definitely isn’t that. For riders on a 633 or larger (more of a surf wing) then having an 80-90cm mast will make the foil feel a lot snappier and tighter on waves and swell but if you’re riding on a 558 then that point is pretty mute. The 558 has a stall speed that’s too high to make those snappy turns anyway so there’s no plus to a shorter mast with that wing. The 101 will be stiffer, give you better upwind performance, and more room for error in maneuvers. Feel free to pm me if you have any more questions about the setup or want some more info. I will say, my go to wing right now is the 558 and it’s super fun but it really doesn’t like to ride the gorge swell. On bigger ocean waves you can really get on the wave but here the swell is just too small and slow barring a couple huge days a year out at Arlington. If you want to do powered free ride or jump then the 558 is awesome!


So, the advice that kiteforum is lacking is simply,

Smaller faster wing operated at a higher speed is best used with a longer mast

Larger slower wing operated at a slower speed is best used with a shorter mast

Right?????


I've had my ear to the rail for the past five years on what new foil setup to get. My understanding was everything was trending shorter mast slower wing, and shorter mast regardless. Seems that isn't so? Still some fast wing guys out there, huh?

And why stop at a 101cm mast? Why don't we see lots of 110s and 120s?

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user124

Since 02 Aug 2012
349 Posts
Portland
Obsessed



PostFri Sep 25, 20 5:03 pm     Reply with quote

It's not as much about speed but more about how much you vary the pitch of your foil (and parallel board) to adapt to the contours of the water. As you change pitch with a longer mast you will move your center of gravity more forward or aft of the center of lift of the foil relative to with a shorter mast. This will make you feel less stable.

The trade-off of course is a longer mast means less likely to breech with a hard carve as you lean over (roll the foil) to go up wind or as you come through the crest of swell since you can keep your foil deeper in the water without touching down your board.

So bottom line - if you want to ride swell or follow the contours of the water, get a shorter mast. If you want to lean hard to go upwind and just blast through swell without following the contour with less risk of breaching/ventilating, get a longer mast.

Bigger wings are slower and better for riding waves or swell, so they generally pair better with shorter masts.

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Pepi

Since 16 Jun 2006
1792 Posts
Pure Stoke Sports
Shop Owner

CGKA Member


PostSat Sep 26, 20 12:47 pm     Reply with quote

Thumb's Up Thumb's Up

Quote:
It's not as much about speed but more about how much you vary the pitch of your foil (and parallel board) to adapt to the contours of the water. As you change pitch with a longer mast you will move your center of gravity more forward or aft of the center of lift of the foil relative to with a shorter mast. This will make you feel less stable.

The trade-off of course is a longer mast means less likely to breech with a hard carve as you lean over (roll the foil) to go up wind or as you come through the crest of swell since you can keep your foil deeper in the water without touching down your board.

So bottom line - if you want to ride swell or follow the contours of the water, get a shorter mast. If you want to lean hard to go upwind and just blast through swell without following the contour with less risk of breaching/ventilating, get a longer mast.

Bigger wings are slower and better for riding waves or swell, so they generally pair better with shorter masts.

_________________
Pure Stoke Sports
Hood River, OR
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Hood-River-OR/2nd-Wind-Sports/35891485558?ref=mf
www.Purestokesports.com

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