Overpower issues. Any insight appreciated.

SimPistol · Since 13 Jan 2011 52 Posts Gold Beach/Pistol River

I live and kite on the Southern Oregon Coast. Pretty much 95% of my sessions for the last 7 years are spent in the surf somewhere in Pistol River. I learned to kite here, I live here, it’s all I really know. It’s also REALLY damn windy June-August, so nuking conditions are par for the course. The vast majority of my kiting career has been spent on various 6m kites (I’m 6ft, 185 lbs). Last season I decided to buy a new 2016 Rally 6m and spent most of the season getting blown off the water. Full on survival kiting, kite totally maxed out, virtually impossible to do anything thing but hold the f--k on. Awesome kite when things mellow out, but mellow is rare here. I learned quickly that the 6m Rally really rides like an 8m kite as far as range is concerned. So this year I went back to a kite that has never failed me or my friends in Pistol conditions: The RPM. I purchased a 2017 6m RPM because, outside of a winter storm, I can’t recall a day any of my previous RPM’s ever failed me in nuking conditions. It’s been windy down here recently so I’ve finally had the opportunity to get out on my new RPM and “express myself”. Much to my disappointment I’m having the same overpower issues I’ve been experiencing with the Rally. Last Friday my buddies were flying older 7m and 8m RPMs without issue while I was wrestling for control of my 6m kite and getting yanked off my board and yarded across the sharky black water on the outside. I went from NEVER having these issues to having half my sessions out here end in frustration as I can’t kite safely with control, let alone hunt down some fun waves and make a good turn without getting yanked so damn hard my booties land on 101. I’m used to riding powered up around here. I like it hot. But my current set-up seems to be possessed, it’s trying to kill me. FYI: I’m running 23m lines on the Slingshot Sentinel bar (2016/17...I think).

Summary: I’m consistently overpowered on my newer 6m kites. This has never been an issue before. What am I missing here?

knotwindy · Since 25 Sep 2011 607 Posts Addicted

Obvious question but are you using the same bar on both? and if so, have you checked line lengths? If the front lines have stretched (or the back lines have shrunk) that is how the kite can fly.

Sella · Sun May 05, 19 10:24 am

A standard 6M SS bar would be 20M lines. I use my 23M lines on my 10M and 12M kites so rigging with shorter lines will mellow out the power of your 6M.

If you have your depower line pulled in too much it makes the "on/off" power delivery really small, which can make it feel punchy and out of tune as you work it through the window. I usually set my depower line about an inch out and forget it.

Also, definitely check your line lengths as knotwindy mentioned because a Rally is a stable high-wind kite so @ 185 pounds I'm surprised you're getting blown off the water so much.

SimPistol · Since 13 Jan 2011 52 Posts Gold Beach/Pistol River

Yep. Same bar. I've suspected that my lines are f--ked, so thanks for confirming that this is an obvious and logical assumption. Currently have a friend's bar in my rig. Was hoping the wind would come up today so I could test it out and compare. It's not ramping up to be good conditions today so I suppose I'll lay out my lines and investigate this line of inquiry. To those that have experience, what's the best course of action if my lines are all goobered? Is there a specific line tuning technique that you'd suggest? Is it best to swap out for new lines? Bar is on it's 3rd season of moderate use in heavy coastal conditions, but in pretty good shape. If stretching lines tends to weaken them to any degree (does it?), I'd rather not run the risk of taking a long swim any time soon. And yes...after kiting for 7/8 years I should probably know this by now. I suppose I've been lucky, in the past my gear has always just worked. I've swapped out worn center lines and done plenty of standard kite maintenance, but never had my lines so out of whack that it made a noticeable difference in my riding. I stepped away from riding Slingshot kites for a few seasons, now that I'm back riding the newer Slingshot Rallys and RPM's I suppose I was also looking for any additional indication of design changes that could potentially contribute to a noticeable difference in performance at the high end of the kite's range.

chrissmack · Since 08 Jun 2005 526 Posts portland Addicted

depends on how much they stretched.

1) you can tie knots in the lines. i've done this on purpose, and on accident, and have never had it break a line. but this is more for one line being a tad longer than the other

2) using the different pigtail knots; if center lines long, use knots that shorten the overall center length, and knots that increase the overall outside steering line length. but this only gets you maybe 1" - 2". and you have to remember to do it every session.

3) chop the lines down. slide the sleeve down the line, cut the lines, and tie knots over the sleeved section. you may have to fiddle with where the knots are to get it just right.

i'm not sure if this will help your exact problem of being over powered, just lending insight into tweaking line lengths

knotwindy · Since 25 Sep 2011 607 Posts Addicted

Lots of vids on it. If there are no nicks or knots in the lines they’re probably ok. Slingy uses good lines that last.
To tune them fully do the center lines first. Hook the chicken loop to something solid and walk out the front/center lines and see if they are the same length with equal moderate pressure on them. If not and the difference is small, maybe an inch & half or less, pull the shorter line hard until even. If further off retie some knots.
Once the center lines are even, set the trim strap to full power, hook all four lines ends to something solid and pull the chicken loop and bar with equal pressure. The bar should be square to the pull and the chicken loop should just touch the bar. Pull lines or adjust knots as necessary. To double check, hold just the bar and as you slack the lines, make sure all four slack evenly with the bar square.
That’s the basics, then you get into personal preferences. Some like a bit longer front lines to be able to oversheet the kite for a moment, especially in the waves. Some hate that backstall feeling.
If you only loop to one side, especially when crashing you might have to check your front lines more often. Usually if you are riding hard, you should check you line trim every 30 sessions? Just a guess but others can chime in on how often you need to check and how much it being off bothers you.

bwd · Since 04 Aug 2007 385 Posts Obsessed

Harness fit, CL size, any change in beer gut configuration, stance adjustment to new boards or any injury or change in conditioning, slipperiness of clothing, hummingbird farts in indonesia, many other small variables can rob you of depower range and/or feel when powered or off/on.
Line length is always good to check.
Also it couid be any difference in pigtails on the new kite compared to the old kites.

chrissmack · Since 08 Jun 2005 526 Posts portland Addicted

maybe rallys take more bar throw to depower than you are used to with your other kites?

i've flown my 6 at rooster rock in overpowered conditions but it is always manageable.

SimPistol · Since 13 Jan 2011 52 Posts Gold Beach/Pistol River

Good info, folks. Thanks for your time. Checked my line lengths via tutorial. Threw on my harness, attached to a fixed anchor point, etc. They were dead nuts perfect. I had to struggle to find any noticeable variation in line length. I expected some serious sag in the center lines or something to be off, but it all looked pretty damn good. I think my next move will be to bump down to 20m lines and see if that can calm the situation a bit.

knotwindy · Since 25 Sep 2011 607 Posts Addicted

Or just get a 5m Shocked

eric · Since 13 Jan 2006 1840 Posts XTreme Poster

^^^

Pistol is windy, man. Many years ago I recall hanging onto a 3.5m windsurf sail--frequently--and I was 6'4" 195 lbs.

Aeolus · Sun May 05, 19 4:28 pm

Ankle weights
Laughing

We were several beers deep in the parking lot Saturday and came to the consensus that we were way over due for 5m kites, that, believe it or not, Pistol is getting windier, and that the lagoon set up looks better than ever (which we say every year).

We also agreed that I kite on the jankiest set of bars and lines. But I made about 25 replacement chicken lines 6 years ago when nak posted his instructions on how to do it and by god i’m going to run my 2010 slingshot bars until my main lines snap or I run out of my homespun trim lines.
Twisted Evil

SimPistol · Since 13 Jan 2011 52 Posts Gold Beach/Pistol River

Aeolus, you are my Pistol River spirit animal. My gear doesn't run on happy thoughts like yours seems to. When I'm on my 6m RPM a quarter mile out to sea, get maxed on a gust and I'm skittering across the surface of the water with my board blowing like a leaf in the wind, my god damn bar sucker punches me in the face and I'm screaming obscenities into the oncoming chop....and then I see you down the beach on your fucking 8m RPM like it's cool. It mystifies me a bit. A 5m isn't out of the question, but Friday was NOT 5m wind. I got gremlins in my gear!! Gremlins I tell ya! I think I need to send you out on my set-up on a juicy day so that you can come back and tell me it's all great.

Windian · Since 28 Apr 2008 892 Posts Newport, OR NEWPORT OG

20m lines are the recommended lines for smaller SS kites. They will make a big difference coming from 23m line lengths.

Shocked

daveS · Since 23 Jul 2007 103 Posts Stoked

Nobody else has said this so i will. The rally's i owned a few years ago definitely wouldn't de-power for me at the top of it's range either. On big wind days here in the gorge i would be getting lifted off my board in winds i would normally fly a 6m in fairly easily. Can't speak for the newer RPM's as i haven't been on them. I agree that you should buy a 5m.

boonie_seattle · Since 26 May 2014 4 Posts Kook

You mentioned it was a 2017 RPM. Was it new or used? If it's used could it be that the bridle on the RPM is not right? Have you had the pro on the 8m RPM fly your 6m RPM to see if he experiences the same issue? Everyone is right to suggest line lengths but now that it's been established not to be the culprit, could it be the kite/bridle itself?

Wind Slither · Since 04 Mar 2005 2588 Posts The 503 METAL

LOL, I remember on my last trip to Pistol, flying a Slingshot T3 5M with 18M lines and being so happy. I think bow type kites with short lines is a magic wand for nukage!
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