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is the 5th line necessary to relaunch a kite from snow?

 
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Ittiandro

Since 02 Dec 2017
2 Posts
Montreal Canada
New Member



PostSat Dec 02, 17 2:28 pm    is the 5th line necessary to relaunch a kite from snow? Reply with quote

Hi

I am a windsurfer and I am now considering both snowkiting and kiteboarding on water in the summer.

I am a bit confused about the 5th line issue .

Most of the LEI kites I have seen on the Internet show a control bar with only 3 lines: two at the sides and one in the middle, described as the safety line, allowing to quick depower and drop the kite by disconnecting it or to gradually decrease the power by pulling on a strap along the same central line. Nowhere do I see more than 3 lines on the control bar ( call it 4th or 5th). . .

Be it as it may, is a 5th line necessary to relaunch the kite on the snow ( or water) ?
Some say it is, but I am not too sure why. I know it can be bought and added separately, but relaunching is so essential that I don't see why, if a 5th line is required, it should not be already included as standard in today’s kites, just as one would expect to buy a car with a ... rear gear and brakes as a standard and not an option. . Is it included ? How can I tell if it is included in the kite by looking at it and the control bar?
I would appreciate clarifications on this, may be with the help of a photo or a video detail.

Thanks

Ittiandro

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ldhr

Since 21 Jul 2009
887 Posts
Hood River
Opinionated



PostSat Dec 02, 17 4:45 pm     Reply with quote

It's an optical delusion.
The 2 middle lines come down from the kite and join together ~6-10 feet above the bar.... and become one line down to the bar.
In this picture you can see the black v-shaped swivel above the bar and the 2 lines above the bar.
http://www.slingshotsports.com/2017-Compstick-Guardian#.WiNIH4anHDc

10 years ago 5-line kites were considered safer than 4 line kites.
4 line kites have evolved to the point that they are just as safe and 5-line kites are becoming obsolete except for certain types of kite riding such as un-hooked wakestyle.
For snow kiting - 4 line kites are great and they relaunch just fine.
A 5th line is definitely not required. and FYI - there's one one brand of kite that you can interchange between 4 and 5 lines (North Kites).
And they are phasing out the 5th line option for 2018.

If someone told you need a 5th line to relaunch on snow I'm guessing they haven't flown a 4 line kite made after 2007.

Last edited by ldhr on Sun Dec 03, 17 12:03 pm; edited 1 time in total

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markamcclure

Since 20 May 2011
73 Posts
Portland, OR
 



PostSun Dec 03, 17 5:53 am     Reply with quote

Some trainer kites have a 3rd line that works similar to the 5th line north setup. I wonder if larger trainer kites are sometimes used for snowkiting?

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Matt V

Since 26 Oct 2014
276 Posts
Summer- OR Coast, Winter - My van near good snow
Explosive Diarrhea



PostSun Dec 03, 17 9:38 am     Reply with quote

markamcclure wrote:
Some trainer kites have a 3rd line that works similar to the 5th line north setup. I wonder if larger trainer kites are sometimes used for snowkiting?



ALWAYS START WITH A TRAINER KITE FIRST! Then move onto a depower kite once you have expert trainer kite skills.

Trainer kites are essentially the same as non-depower traction kites. And they work acceptably for kite skateboarding, kite ice skating, or kite skiing if sized properly - all low drag applications. However, they are less capable when used for kitesnowboarding. I know this as my intro to kiteboarding was with a 4m non-depower traction kite. Once I moved onto depower kites, my skills and enjoyment increased exponentially.

Bottom line is that when you need low end (getting up on a snowboard) or a wide depower range (variable winds or planing to sub-planing power variability), you need a depower kite.


And the 3rd line on a trainer/traction kite is nothing like the 5th line on an inflatable. On an inflatable kite, the 5th line pulls on the leading edge at the center of the kite when loaded. Whereas the 3rd (or 2 rear) line pulls on the trailing edge of a foil kite. The 3rd line on a traction/trainer kite is more related to the steering lines on a depower kite, as opposed to the 5th line on an inflatable.

The 3rd line helps to relaunch a trainer/traction kite by "reversing the kite" or making it fly backwards - trailing edge goes up and leading edge follows while the 3rd lines is pulled. This is exactly what happens when you reverse a depower kite by pulling on the steering lines.

The 5th line helps relaunching by putting a kite on it's back and allowing it to be rolled over to the side of the window when it would normally just sit leading edge down on the water/snow with no chance of relaunching it - C-KITES ONLY (not modern SLE/delta/bow kites) had to be relaunched with assistance from the 5th line or by swimming toward the kite to allow the water surface to act almost as a 5th line.


To answer the OP's question "is the 5th line necessary to relaunch a kite from snow?" Not on any modern kite you want to utilize as a beginner looking to have the best time on the snow and progress quickly.

Don't buy a C-kite. Your best bet is to buy a beginner friendly new inflatable kite that is guaranteed to not have a 5th line. Though I would recommend the Ozone "Access" for snowkiting, and it does have a useful 5th line system that is very different from other 5th lines I have talked about.

If you purchase used, your only real chance of getting a kite that is right for you and still having a 5th line required is if you find a North "Rebel" 2017 or older.

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Singlemalt

Since 21 Jun 2015
89 Posts
White Salmon
 



PostSun Dec 03, 17 10:16 am    Trainer first. Reply with quote

I’d suggest a 2 meter trainer and video package from Real Kiteboarding. The Zero to hero package. Go fly. fly some more. Repeat often. Seek instruction. Get some experience. Buying some gear comes last.

Hooking up to a big power kite, especially on terra firma, can win you a spot on the kite-mare classics biggest hits video.

Don’t learn the hard way. Take it slow and easy.

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Ittiandro

Since 02 Dec 2017
2 Posts
Montreal Canada
New Member



PostSun Dec 03, 17 12:05 pm     Reply with quote

Thank you guys for your clarification. Excellent!

I now see where my confusion came from : basically my “ 3 lines “ are 4 lines , because 2 of them are joined higher up and I see where the 5th line would fit in..

I gather then that all the 4 lines have the same basic features ( depowering, safety release, power control and re-launching through the middle line, so that 5th line may be unnecessary in most cases...

I believe that the Slingshot control bar you show as well as the Oozone kite shown in the instructional video at
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZLS2qqFggo at 4:52 minutes in the time sequence, are also 4 lines, basically with the same Depowering, safety release and power control through middle line.

As a final step to clarify, I would appreciate it if you had a quick look at the Kitemare HQ Hydra trainer kite at
https://www.kitemare.com/hydra-ii-350/ , particularly at the diagram in their manual at
https://www.kitemare.com/trainer-kite-manuals .
To me it looks a 4 lines ,too . They say that the HQ Hydra has full Depowering and Safety release,features , like the other 4 lines kites , I presume.
Please have a look at them and let me know if this is the case or if they are more basic.

If the Hydra is comparable to the other 4 lines kites in terms of these features ( even though their flight performance may be different because of the smaller size or the design), I wouldn’t mind to buy one : they cost 1/3rd of a full fledge L.E.I ( $ 350 ) and they are water launchable and re-launchable., because they have closed cells prefilled with air, while their design, if I understand correctly, is closer to an open cell foil..
Quality-wise, i wouldn't worry: European products, particularly German products, are notoriously very reliable.

Thanks for your comments

Ittiandro

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Matt V

Since 26 Oct 2014
276 Posts
Summer- OR Coast, Winter - My van near good snow
Explosive Diarrhea



PostSun Dec 03, 17 5:54 pm     Reply with quote

Ittiandro wrote:


I believe that the Slingshot control bar you show as well as the Oozone kite shown in the instructional video at
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZLS2qqFggo at 4:52 minutes in the time sequence, are also 4 lines, basically with the same Depowering, safety release and power control through middle line.

To me it looks a 4 lines ,too . They say that the HQ Hydra has full Depowering and Safety release,features , like the other 4 lines kites , I presume.....
If the Hydra is comparable to the other 4 lines kites in terms of these features.....

Ittiandro


No. The Hydra II is not a depower kite. I understand the confusion - "depower" would be more clear if changed to "sheetable". That means the front lines stay fixed, but the rear lines move in and out with the bar under normal operation. The term "full depower safety" is referring to when the kite is released onto it's safety line and how much power (pull) is dumped when the kite is on that safety leash.

Ittiandro, I understand where you are coming from. I was where you are some years ago. I wanted to buy a cheap kite to try out the sport. So I purchased a 4m (my retailer would not sell me a 5m) non-depower....not sheetable foil kite. This almost ended my journey into kiteboarding. For a trainer, even with me weighing 100kg, it was too big. I actually gave that kite away and have purchased a few trainers of 2.5m up to 3.5m after that. I even own a Hydra I that I never use. I only use my 2.5m trainer, even if I am kiteskateboarding.

Your cost of entry to buy new is:

$220 for your trainer kite. Don't skip it. If you do (like I did) you may quit all together and not have any use for that bigger kite at all. If you do make it through the injuries a bigger non-depower kite will likely give you, you will still need to purchase a true depower (sheetable) kite to actually ride with.

Then you are going to have to buy either inflatables for snow and water kiting, or depower (sheetable) foils for snowkiting. Look for that to be around $3000 new for two sizes of kite.

TOTAL INITIAL COST OF YOUR OWN GEAR (you will need to pay for lessons in addition to this) IS $3220 before you even buy boards and skis.

Buying used can help with cost, but you will likely wind up with mismatched gear if you cannot find the same kite for both of the initial sizes you need.

Again, the Hydra is not a good choice for your trainer. Larger trainers are limited in usefulness. Buy a small trainer and make sure you learn how to fly it well.

And to be clear, YOU NEED LESSONS so you do not wreck that $3000 of gear you are looking at buying. Or if you manage to struggle through learning yourself, you will likely have a hospital visit or two ranging from $3000-$100000+ a long life in a wheelchair. So even if you can avoid the cost with free healthcare in Canada, there still is a cost to your lifestyle.

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Singlemalt

Since 21 Jun 2015
89 Posts
White Salmon
 



PostSun Dec 03, 17 6:38 pm     Reply with quote

My trip down the hard road, circa 2007, ended with an injury, multiple kitemares, all the spiffy gear sold at a loss, and another seven years going by before I was willing to give it another shot. Went back to windsurfing.

Second time around, trainer kite, lessons, and a more cautious approach with better, safer gear. Three great seasons later my biggest regret is not taking the smart road and getting past the beginner stage years ago.

Zero to hero is free to watch online, and the package 2 meter trainer and video is only $99.

At least the kitemare site is upfront about hazards and risks. It happens in the blink of an eye.

Once you are flying 90% one handed, try adding a skate board. (In light wind, with protective gear).

Better yet, make a vacation of it and go someplace nice and warm with a school to get going.

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fstdude

Since 16 Feb 2010
66 Posts

 



PostWed Dec 06, 17 1:57 pm     Reply with quote

Ittiandro makes an observation that most kiters will argue against. He is right, "they are all three line kites". A modern 4 or 5 line kite is nothing more than a three line kite with a 20 meter bridle terminating in a single line before going through the bar. Sure there are safety and trimming things attached to the system but while flying, you are flying a "three line kite".

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