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Sailing Right of Way
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Post new topic   Reply to topic    Northwest Kiteboarding -> Gorge / Portland / Oregon Coast
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pura vida one

Since 22 May 2007
80 Posts

 



PostSun Aug 12, 07 7:23 pm    fer sher Reply with quote

uhoh, blowhard, dcrowe was rushing to set up, barely shook my hand and said you guys were getting all HIS waves.
yeah, registered and blowhard,you're right about the difference of my the thing w/ marty as it was vs how it would be when crowded. it occured to me right after it happened that i knew for sure that noone was around so it was easy to just whip the kite and board around and head away as fast as possible. and yeah, i was coming upwind into the regular lineup area thinking it was gonna be MINE. the suggestions on here had me riding downwind farther than i liked, but that's life.
i'd seen you before blowhard, w/out knowing it. that green kite. and all the guys in white trucks have reputations that precede them. you rip it down the line. i just need another 30 or so days on the water this year and i'll be lineup w/ guys - maybe. i'm sure you'll all be overjoyed. what are september and october like windwise? if i get 50 days in my first year, it's gonna be good.

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blowhard

Since 26 Dec 2005
2023 Posts

Windward



PostMon Aug 13, 07 6:45 am     Reply with quote

a wave of the hand is always better than a
WAG OF THE FINGER

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Ho-Toe

Since 30 Apr 2014
231 Posts
pissed-off science guy like Bill Nye
CO2 quantifier & upwelling specialist



PostThu Jun 22, 17 2:05 pm    review Reply with quote

Hello kiddies, kooks, and aggro transient wannabe-wave-slashers.

We've been talking about this for a long time now (look at the date of the original post), yet every summer it's the same story: crowds descend on our normally tranquil beaches and start screwing up our wave-sailing lineups.

Please review the rules of wave-sailing etiquette. Snaking somebody who is already riding a wave downwind is considered poor behavior, as is interfering with a wave-sailor's line because you are on your starboard rail. Rolling Eyes

See you at the beach...

Last edited by Ho-Toe on Thu Jun 22, 17 8:37 pm; edited 1 time in total

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ldhr

Since 21 Jul 2009
1470 Posts
Hood River
XTreme Poster



PostThu Jun 22, 17 2:48 pm     Reply with quote

Assuming you're talking about ocean wave sailing and not the Gorge.

What about when the wind is light and the person heading out is under powered and can't make course adjustments and is about to get munched by the sweet wave..... does the wave sailor still have right-of-way?

If I'm the wave sailor I'll yield to the person struggling to get outside.

I think #1 has right of way in all situations.
2 and 3 are a toss up.

Right of way priority:
1. less maneuverable craft has right of way
2. vessel on starboard has right of way (right hand forward)
3. surfer etiquette - person on wave has right of way

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Ho-Toe

Since 30 Apr 2014
231 Posts
pissed-off science guy like Bill Nye
CO2 quantifier & upwelling specialist



PostThu Jun 22, 17 4:46 pm    wave-sailing Reply with quote

Yes, I am talking specifically about downwind, down-the-line wave sailing, on breaking waves, in the salty brine. The Gorge has different rules; following established nautical navigational laws makes much more sense there.

In your hypothetical example, if one is reaching seaward, underpowered, about to be munched by a set wave, and somebody else is riding downwind & down-the-line on that set wave, then the hypothetical seaward rider has already screwed up. What should the hypothetical seaward rider do? Don't get into that situation in the first place. The seaward rider should have seen the set coming and the wave sailor setting up long before it became a problem. The wave sailor has far more to lose wiping out on a big set wave than the seaward rider has to lose chicken gybing to get out of the way.

That being said, having right of way doesn't mean I (or anyone I know) would run down your hypothetical underpowered kiter. I don't want to collide with anybody! That's the reason we have rules like these in the first place, to prevent problems--not so we can blame the other guy after a collision. Smile

Last edited by Ho-Toe on Sat Jun 24, 17 8:02 am; edited 1 time in total

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Wind Slither

Since 04 Mar 2005
2570 Posts
The 503
METAL



PostFri Jun 23, 17 6:44 am     Reply with quote

I'm with you Ho-toe. Starboard or no, the guy trying to bust out through the break needs to jibe it and yield to the guy on the wave. Always.

Thumb's Up

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Matt V

Since 26 Oct 2014
462 Posts
Summer- OR Coast, Winter - My van near good snow
Explosive Diarrhea



PostFri Jun 23, 17 7:48 am     Reply with quote

Ho-Toe, Wind Slither,

Try to kite happy, and praise to the almighty that you have these problems. In fact, I think you could actually talk to the guy on the beach that “cut you off” or “snaked your wave” and thank him for putting your life, and kitesurfing, in perspective. Because this is the least of the problems you could possibly have.

If you were a prone surfer, a wave snake would actually matter. And you would wind up waiting for a half hour in the lineup for your turn at a CHANCE to catch a wave. Think about just being off by 10yds from where you should have been, and not being able to catch that wave. Think about the 6 other surfers trying to catch the single wave at the break at that time, and only one of you (maybe two) could ride it.

But since you are fortunate enough to be a kitesurfer, hopefully with some skill, you do not have to worry about this issue. You will catch the next wave in less than half a minute. Or you could take a 10 second ride out the bigger wave behind it. I can’t even count the times a beginner or even an a-hole made me choose to abandon a wave and sent me to a better one behind it - or in the next set.

My right of way approach goes like this:

I have enough skill to get out of the way of anyone I have encountered for the past 4 years – thus I yield to everyone with 1 exception – If I have no power in the kite where I am at (singing the s—t out of it would be your subtlest clue) I now have the right of way over anyone, even if you are on what you think is the perfect wave.

Leave the surfer attitude on the 50 square yards of the prone surfing break and those 2 waves you got to ride there. Be happy on the miles of kitesurfing break and the countless wave rides we get to enjoy.

Kitesurf happy - Prone surf angry.

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Wind Slither

Since 04 Mar 2005
2570 Posts
The 503
METAL



PostFri Jun 23, 17 8:49 am     Reply with quote

Matt V wrote:
Ho-Toe, Wind Slither,

Try to kite happy,


I do, I do! Smile

Maybe I should have read the previous threads closer. My point was only to raise awareness. If a guy is focused on the wave face and riding down the line, especially on bigger days, it's easy to miss someone coming from the beach. So besides maximizing everyone's wave enjoyment it's a safety thing. But yeah, if I see someone struggling out through the break fighting for survival, I'm not going to yell or bitch them out. Plenty of room, plenty of waves...just at least know what your supposed to do (extra tack inside and let the guy have his wave). Smile

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PieroPDX

Since 22 May 2006
109 Posts

Stoked



PostFri Jun 23, 17 10:23 am     Reply with quote

Where's the obligatory Dangler gif I came here to see? Somebody sleepin' on the job?

STAAARBOARRRD!

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If you're in PDX hit me up, I'm looking to meet kiters in town. I'm close in NW.

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Sasquatch

Since 09 Mar 2005
2053 Posts
PNW
Bigfoot



PostFri Jun 23, 17 10:49 am     Reply with quote

PieroPDX wrote:
Where's the obligatory Dangler gif I came here to see? Somebody sleepin' on the job?

STAAARBOARRRD!


Per your request. . . Very Happy

Presenting "Bump & Grump", minute 1:02


https://vimeo.com/37276314


   dang_110.gif 

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K4L

Since 19 Jan 2009
483 Posts

Obsessed



PostFri Jun 23, 17 2:22 pm     Reply with quote

Matt V wrote:
Ho-Toe, Wind Slither,

Try to kite happy, and praise to the almighty that you have these problems. In fact, I think you could actually talk to the guy on the beach that “cut you off” or “snaked your wave” and thank him for putting your life, and kitesurfing, in perspective. Because this is the least of the problems you could possibly have.

If you were a prone surfer, a wave snake would actually matter. And you would wind up waiting for a half hour in the lineup for your turn at a CHANCE to catch a wave. Think about just being off by 10yds from where you should have been, and not being able to catch that wave. Think about the 6 other surfers trying to catch the single wave at the break at that time, and only one of you (maybe two) could ride it.

But since you are fortunate enough to be a kitesurfer, hopefully with some skill, you do not have to worry about this issue. You will catch the next wave in less than half a minute. Or you could take a 10 second ride out the bigger wave behind it. I can’t even count the times a beginner or even an a-hole made me choose to abandon a wave and sent me to a better one behind it - or in the next set.

My right of way approach goes like this:

I have enough skill to get out of the way of anyone I have encountered for the past 4 years – thus I yield to everyone with 1 exception – If I have no power in the kite where I am at (singing the s—t out of it would be your subtlest clue) I now have the right of way over anyone, even if you are on what you think is the perfect wave.

Leave the surfer attitude on the 50 square yards of the prone surfing break and those 2 waves you got to ride there. Be happy on the miles of kitesurfing break and the countless wave rides we get to enjoy.

Kitesurf happy - Prone surf angry.


Yo Bro. It's called the golden rule.
Instead of being aggro
Wee would all benefit

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Ho-Toe

Since 30 Apr 2014
231 Posts
pissed-off science guy like Bill Nye
CO2 quantifier & upwelling specialist



PostFri Jun 23, 17 10:11 pm     Reply with quote

Thanks for reading, folks, and for the dialog. Really! Very Happy

I can tell that some nwkiters took my entreaties to heart. Folks were much better-behaved today at the surf break I frequent where folks sometimes kite. Thanks to everybody who has their head on a swivel, exhibiting situational awareness in the lineup. All 5-6 of us got along just fine. Everybody followed The Golden Rule and we all had great sessions. Maybe it was my two cockrings... oops, wrong thread.

Some good points were raised. I'll try to respond to a couple of them in no particular order.

Right hand forward--I love this rule! From now on, I will ride goofy footed and never gybe, so I will have right-of-way forever. Problem solved! Outta my way! But what happens when the wind blows south? Uh, too complicated. Wave-rider has right-of-way.

Starboard!!!!--A wave-sailor who is going down the line at the surf break I frequent has the starboard rail of his surfboard engaged. Wave-sailor has right of way by that metric. But is wave-sailor SOL when he goes left? How does that work? Too complicated. Wave-sailor has right of way.

Less maneuverable craft--If the wave-sailor is riding down-the-line in the pocket, he has very restricted maneuverability, especially on an overhead wave. There's a big wall of water obstructing half of his potential course. Based upon that metric, the wave-sailor has right of way.

Matt V, I appreciate the point you are trying to make. I think (I certainly hope) that your scenario describes an isolated incident, not an entire session spent tea-baggin' it in the impact zone. If somebody's obviously dragging ass, sine-ing their kite around, underpowered, of course the down-the-line wave sailor should try to avoid them. I'd probably even cruise by and check in on the person.

None of this wave-sailing right-of-way stuff really matters much at a bump 'n jump spot, nor when doing a downwinder. But when point-sailing and riding a wave that breaks recurringly from a defined peak, it matters a lot. If you're a visual learner, look back on page 1 or 2 of this thread for a diagram of a surf lineup. The spots where this lineup rotation matters are surf breaks first and foremost. They become kite spots for a few hours in the afternoon, if we're lucky. The "stay out of the wave-rider's way" rule is first and foremost a surfer's rule. It's a rule at all surf spots, not just the aggro ones. It's still a rule even after the wind has picked up. It's a lineup rule. It is The Golden Rule! Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Does the snaker want to be snaked? No.

Please, spare me the surf rage lectures (I hope you're alluding to the lil' spat earlier in the thread, a decade ago)--there's no surf rage here, not from me nor anyone else at the surf spot where I kite sometimes. It's a very democratic, generally pretty welcoming lineup. Unless you're a SUPer. Just kidding!!!

Um, so... how 'bout that nice SW swell that's showing, eh? Wink

And thanks for reposting the Dangler graffix. Good stuff.

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blowhard

Since 26 Dec 2005
2023 Posts

Windward



PostSat Jun 24, 17 6:19 am     Reply with quote

what he said
Cool

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Matt V

Since 26 Oct 2014
462 Posts
Summer- OR Coast, Winter - My van near good snow
Explosive Diarrhea



PostSat Jun 24, 17 8:44 am     Reply with quote

This is the most important part of this whole issue - RIGHT OF WAY IS NOT WHAT YOU THINK!!!

The vessel with the "right of way" is actually more restricted than the vessel that does not have the right of way.

If you HAVE the right of way, you must HOLD COURSE. That means not deviating from your line of tack upwind or down wind. You must hold steady so the other vessel can avoid you.

If you DO NOT HAVE the right of way, you can choose any course that will avoid the vessel that has the right of way. That means you can go upwind, downwind, turn, or even stop to avoid the vessel with the right of way.

If you come from a sailboat racing background, you may question this interpretation as poor sailors often try to block other racers via the written rules when the poor sailor cant win in a straight line. Good sailors don't need to beat other sailors over the head with the rule book as they just go fast. But that is racing.

Wave sailing falls under navigational rules - not the racing rules strategy. You simply want to avoid the other craft and by following the same rules. No one is trying to strategize to "win".


One of the challenges wave kiters face is that there is no real written rule book for wave sailing. If there was, it would be too complicated for the majority to understand, even if they knew of it's existence. So I will deffer to common sense.

1. At a crowded spot where you have to take turns on the wave - TAKE TURNS

2. If you are at a beach with 20 other kiters and a hundred different waves breaking, and you find the same person in front of you more than 2 times, it is your fault. And if you are not ok with that, then you are that kook that does not even know that they are a kook. But many of these oblivious kooks grow out of that with experience, so there is hope for you if you fall into this category.

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Ho-Toe

Since 30 Apr 2014
231 Posts
pissed-off science guy like Bill Nye
CO2 quantifier & upwelling specialist



PostSat Jun 24, 17 10:02 am    Rick Kane? Reply with quote

This ongoing "debate" reminds me of a classy bit of cinematography in which some kid from a wave pool in Arizona tries to tell Da Hui how it's gonna be:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4yUUI1PRQr4

Twisted Evil

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